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Post by yanmacca on May 10, 2016 13:11:23 GMT
Hi Tom, I think the problems are down to place names, we all take these locations for granted because they have all been given names, but to the Indians they were just either a hill, river or ravine, people have been reading these accounts for years and years, and looking at maps with these names added, the notion of the fording place being ford B would seem natural as it is the closest one to hand.
Two Moons mentions features which could be around both fords, but the cemetery is the game breaker.
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Post by quincannon on May 10, 2016 13:21:29 GMT
Reservation-village probably got lost in the translation - understandable.
What was the date on the Two Moons story? There are stones (markers) all over the lot, and the cemetery, where it is now, was established late in the game. If for instance he is talking the temporary cemetery established early on that was near where the marker is on LSH, it would mean something slightly different from the present cemetery.
I think the key statement is "above the village" for deciding what Ford he was talking about. C was tactically unusable east to west, leaving only one, Ford D.
These people had no reason to lie, bend, spindle, or mutilate the truth - They won.
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Post by yanmacca on May 10, 2016 13:36:19 GMT
Hi Chuck, apparently it was in 1913, he also adds this to his account;
On the creek where Custer came down there were a few Sioux only who had joined the Cheyenne’s on that north side of the river, they were all Cheyenne except these few Sioux. After Tow Moons got his men all ready he ordered them to charge, they charged right up the sloping ground and hill on the soldiers who stood where the first line of stones is.
Now earlier he mentioned about E Company, so were this first line of stones is located is any ones guess.
He goes on to mention that his men charged twice and were repulsed by heavy fire, it was at the third attempt that they were successful and he says that he swept to the right and north. The soldiers in the gulch he mentioned earlier, had now let their horses go.
The problem with Two Moons is that he drew a couple of maps, one looks like an approach down MTC to ford B and up to Calhoun hill, another has him moving north. But he still says that the Sioux crossed the river and were concealed in the brakes west of the monument.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on May 10, 2016 15:20:00 GMT
Chuck,
The National Cemetery was established 9 Jan.,1879. Less than 3 years after the battle, Two Moon would be very familiar as he lived a short distance down US 212 and his own monument is also not very far away. he may have not known that that route would become a US highway, but the cemetery was there when he was a young man. I think Fetterman's crew among the first buried there.
I kind of wish heyoka(Ron) would jump in here and add what he knows of the Cheyenne perspective. I have Marquis(Wooden Leg), JJSIT, Viola, and others. His additions would be a welcome add.
Regards Tom
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Post by quincannon on May 10, 2016 17:50:24 GMT
Yes I know the cemetery was established early, but its original location was on top of LSH.
By 1913 though, the date of the Two Moon testimony, the present location of the cemetery was well established, and the present cemetery location makes the most sense for the first line of stones, because there is a small ravine immediately behind it, where I would expect he referenced stashing the horses
JSIT looks more plausible all the time.
My mouth is completely numb from this mornings excursion into dentalmania, and have another go at it at 3:00 this afternoon. Going to be nice when its finished though.
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Post by yanmacca on May 10, 2016 18:22:44 GMT
Are you doing a DIY job on your own nashers?
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Post by yanmacca on May 10, 2016 18:51:43 GMT
Also in the Two Moons narrative there is a guy called W.T. Rowland who was an interpreter I think, was on the battlefield with his uncle Roan Bear, he gives an insight to how some of the troops lined up, which is rather unusual as the formed an upside down L shape, here is what he said;
Rowland says a troop (1st line) was deployed on the ridge where the first fighting took place, another troop was deployed at a right angle (2nd line). The troop forming the right angle advanced over the ridge and were killed.
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on May 11, 2016 12:22:59 GMT
Also in the Two Moons narrative there is a guy called W.T. Rowland who was an interpreter I think, was on the battlefield with his uncle Roan Bear, he gives an insight to how some of the troops lined up, which is rather unusual as the formed an upside down L shape, here is what he said; Rowland says a troop (1st line) was deployed on the ridge where the first fighting took place, another troop was deployed at a right angle (2nd line). The troop forming the right angle advanced over the ridge and were killed.Could this be Companies C and L to the south? Cheers
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Post by yanmacca on May 11, 2016 12:32:01 GMT
Mac here is the actual doc, it is very vague.
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Post by quincannon on May 11, 2016 12:52:19 GMT
It does make sense to me Mac, but this morning I have the mental agility of a three peckered goat with all the pain meds I am on. I sure do look pretty though.
Someone put up a map, Ian that is your department. Concentrate the map area on cemetery ridge, showing as far north as the trading post, and as far south as a little below LSH on BR.
The dismiss from your mind that this person knew what a troop was, and used the word for a body of troops, thusly, One body of troops deployed on the ridge where the first fighting took place. The other body of troops formed a line at a right angle.
Lets see what we can see from that map and how it would fit the story. In preparation Ian take that yellow pencil of yours and draw a single line north to south on the military crest of cemetery ridge facing due west toward the river. Then stand by with the pencil.
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Post by yanmacca on May 11, 2016 13:14:13 GMT
Here it is Chuck.
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Post by quincannon on May 11, 2016 13:22:27 GMT
Show me more to the left side of the map, even if you have to sacrifice some from the present right side. Not much just a couple hundred more yards to the left.
Erase the yellow line in battle ridge. Draw a yellow line through the words cemetery ridge, and we have a good starting place.
If you can draw a yellow goose egg around Calhoun Hill.
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Post by yanmacca on May 11, 2016 13:35:37 GMT
Whoops I put a yellow line throw the wrong ridge, thats better. Chuck, thats as far left as I go,
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Post by quincannon on May 11, 2016 14:19:25 GMT
That will do nicely.
Now draw another yellow line from the left side of your present yellow line into the center of those two Y shaped dry creek beds just above the first yellow line. Once done take out your red pencil and from the end of that second yellow line you have just drawn draw a line in red across the top of battle ridge to the C in Calhoun Ridge. Once done branch off a red line in the one you have just drawn, and end it the at capt in Capt, Keogh.
Once done read the above story again, so we can all determine if it makes sense or not.
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Post by yanmacca on May 11, 2016 14:32:57 GMT
Right Chuck, tell me if this is ok or not;
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