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Post by deadwoodgultch on May 8, 2016 14:25:20 GMT
Godfrey in what is quoted below seems to back up JSIT's tale of not Ford B but rather possible Ford D/northern movement.
"The accepted theory for many years after the battle, and still persisted in by some writers, was that Custer’s column had turned the high bluffs near the river, moved down the dry (Reno’s) creek, and attempted to ford the river near the lowest point of these bluffs; that he was there met by an overpowering force and driven back ; that he then divided his battalion, moved down the river with the view of attacking the village, but met with such resistance from the enemy posted along the river bank and ravines that he was compelled to fall back, fighting, to the position on the ridge. The numerous bodies found scattered between the river and ridge were supposed to be the first victims of the fight. I am now satisfied that these were men who either survived those on the ridge or attempted to escape the massacre." "The wife of Spotted Horn Bull, when giving me her account of the battle, persisted in saying that Custer’s column did not attempt to cross at the ford, and appealed to her husband, who supported her statement. On the battle field, in 1886, Chief Gall indicated Custer’s route to me, and it then flashed upon me that I myself had seen Custer’s trail. On June 28, while we were burying the dead, I asked Major Reno’s permission to go on the high ridge east or back of the field to look for tracks of shod horses to ascertain if some of the command might not have escaped. When I reached the ridge I saw this trail, and wondered who could have made it, but dismissed the thought that it had been made by Custer’s column, because it did not accord with the theory with which we were then filled, that Custer had attempted to cross at the ford, and this trail was too far back, and showed no indication of leading toward the ford. Trumpeter Penwell was my orderly and accompanied me. It was a singular coincidence that in 1886 Penwell was stationed at Fort Custer, and was my orderly when visiting the battle field. Penwell corroborated my recollection of the trail. The ford theory arose from the fact that we found there numerous tracks of shod horses, but they evidently had been made after the Indians had possessed themselves of the cavalry horses, for they rode them after capturing them. No bodies of men or horses were found anywhere near the ford, and these facts are conclusive to my mind that Custer did not go to the ford with any body of men."
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Post by yanmacca on May 8, 2016 17:50:47 GMT
Tom, it’s been a beautiful day over here, so this afternoon I did a spot of gardening, then ate a lovely Sunday dinner and sat on my bench just watching the birds jumping around the lawn, but then I decided to go on line and catch up on what has been happening on our board and I glad I did because I enjoyed the Godfrey account you posted and agree with him 100%.
Yan.
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Post by quincannon on May 8, 2016 19:22:40 GMT
I do too. Always have. It makes the most sense.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on May 9, 2016 0:07:16 GMT
Ian, It has been wet here for over a week. It was beautiful here as well, today. After that post I bush hogged for roughly, 5 hours. If I had a hay baler I could have made a few bucks. I will recommend a book here, it is over 800 pages, you can get it from Amazon for about $3.00 "Little Bighorn Appendices" by Patrick Griffith. It is worth the read, it would be the Captain's worst nightmare. I hate to use this term, but it is very "fair and balanced." The old letters are worth the price including ones from GAC's sister and his ACW Adjutant, not to mention the stonewalling from N. Miles.
Regards, Tom
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Post by Beth on May 9, 2016 0:37:15 GMT
I'll echo your recommendation of that book but want to clarify it is seems only to be available as a Kindle. However Kindle apps are free download and work on computers and tablets.
It is also 'loanable" if anyone would like to borrow my copy. Loaning on Kindle gives access to a loadable book for 14 days. I'll be making a list of my other loanable kindles and posting it--and anyone who wants to add their own are welcome to. The only thing thing is that when a book is out on loan you are unable to read it yourself, just like if you loan a hard copy book. The good thing is you always get your book back. I will double check though because I believe there is a limit to how many books you can load out at one time. The loanable tend to be books that are free or cheap because they are no longer copyright protected-perfect for people who want to read older accounts.
If interested drop me a private message.
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on May 9, 2016 12:08:58 GMT
Has always made sense to me.
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Post by yanmacca on May 9, 2016 13:15:55 GMT
I have tried to buy it Tom and as Beth said it is only available in Kindle, now I have never used Kindle before and would rather feel the paper in my hands but I cannot find it in book form anywhere, it was only £2.80 which is the price of a beer so it is real cheap, and I am currently assembling a few books for my holidays (vacation), so I am disappointing that I can not buy this book.
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Post by yanmacca on May 9, 2016 13:22:54 GMT
The JSIT map contains all the attributes that you would associate with Custer, he had previously divided his column and sent Reno to attack from another direction and now he sets off a full speed to reach the opposite end of the camps, just following his rout from LCN to ford D seems natural enough and makes more sense then him leaving over half of his men to defend a hill top and going for a peek up ahead, because that to me doesn't sound like Custer.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on May 9, 2016 13:23:57 GMT
Ian, The Kindle app is free to download to your computer or pad. The book does not clutter your house and it will always be there.
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Post by Beth on May 9, 2016 19:34:42 GMT
Not only on your computer but any other electronic you want it on like a tablet. It's always archived on Amazon so if you (knock on wood) crash your hard drive or lose you computer, you always can retrieve your Kindle content.
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Post by quincannon on May 9, 2016 20:21:28 GMT
It is my considered opinion that only a stark raving bat crap crazy fool would use Medicine Tail Coulee as a route of approach march during daylight hours. It is wide and relatively easy going, but it has high ground on three sides, as these type features are defined by having. It might be a tempting route at night, were it well reconnoitered in advance, knowing exactly where it would lead, but it is still death ground, and I would resist my own instincts for the fast and easy, selecting instead more difficult and secure every time.
Godfrey is honest in what he says. I don't believe him to have an great agenda, and his views when given in the time he gave them would ruffle more than a few contemporary feathers.
Godfrey and JSIT don't have much of a following in the larger LBH community. In a way they point to contemporary authors having been caught wearing only their BVD's. Contemporary authors don't like to be challenged, by commonsense darts thrown their way.
I am glad this board sees fit from time to time to throw conventional wisdom in the waste can in favor of exploring things like Godfrey and JSIT.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on May 9, 2016 21:33:48 GMT
Some thoughts about Godfrey, these are my thoughts. I think Godfrey was a critical thinker. He thought this battle through and came to conclusions over the years, and I find most of them very accurate.
For those who would like to blame Reno for GAC's demise, I think Godfrey is not sure. Initially he did not consider it, as time went on he wondered if Reno could have held the timber. As you know he was not alone. What really turned the corner for Godfrey was when he heard that Reno discussed, with Benteen, leaving the wounded and pulling out the first night. Godfrey began to wonder about Reno's courage and wisdom. It did not help Reno cause that most of the officers did not care for him as a person, and this got worse as time went on.
Regards, Tom
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Post by quincannon on May 9, 2016 21:46:56 GMT
Anything like that would not have been popular in that era, and Godfrey would not be immune to such bad feelings.
That said, leaving the wounded was a topic that needed to be discussed, distasteful or not. Would not be the first time such an action had to be taken to attempt to save the whole, and it would not be, and will not be, the last.
The thing to remember is that while these things must be considered, they should, and in good conscience only be acted upon in the last and most extreme circumstance.
The commander's first responsibility is to preserve, whole, living, breathing, able to fight combat power, and there are times not unknown to all services, of all countries, where such actions are absolutely necessary.
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Post by yanmacca on May 10, 2016 12:33:34 GMT
This is what Two Moons said, and if it fits with what JSIT says, but I am unsure about what he is saying when he says the “reservation” does he mean the “village”?.
When Custer came in he was going to cross the river at the point above the reservation. When he got within a few yards of the horn, shots from the Indians on the opposite side turned him, so that his course was thrown about half a mile away from the river. When Custer got up on top where the stones are the troops dismounted and tried to lead their horses down into a gulch. The grey horse company was the only troop that held their horses. Each man held his own. Not a shot was fired while this was going on. They were making preparations.
If Custer retreated from the river and ended up on cemetery hill, then I would guess that the crossing point was ford D rather than B.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on May 10, 2016 13:04:04 GMT
Excellent assumption Ian. Again we have one side of the story, but why would these NA's not tell the truth about this detail. So you have JSIT, Two Moon, with Godfrey indicating the same.
Regards, Tom
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