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Post by quincannon on May 11, 2016 14:59:50 GMT
Perfect.
Now read the story. L shaped formation. Ride over the ridge, all killed. No detail in the "all killed" but this was a Cheyenne telling the story. As far as the Cheyenne go, "over the ridge - all killed" is the sidebar to the Cheyenne story of dealing with Custer's two, which was represented by the yellow line drawn through the words cemetery ridge.
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Post by yanmacca on May 11, 2016 15:08:43 GMT
So what we are seeing here is positions being overrun on cemetery ridge which led to Keogh moving back south?
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Post by quincannon on May 11, 2016 16:03:12 GMT
Not yet. We are hopefully seeing four companies that moved toward Ford D (per JSIT) then the two foremost companies (E and F)deploying on the western face of cemetery ridge, and for some reason, yet unknown, the two trailing companies (C and I) turning back, riding over the ridge (battle ridge) to their ultimate fate.
The reason for the turn back is unknown and probably will remain so. Possibilities are:
1) They were ordered by Custer to turn back, leaving E and F to cover that movement, with the intention of turning back themselves.
2) Ordered back by Custer to address the extraction of the rear guard. That would almost certainly require a message from that rear guard, and we have no way to determine if such a message was sent or received.
3) Keogh and Harrington turning back on their own hook, possibly to address firing detected from the rear guard. That seems unlikely.
4) Keogh and Harrington using their own initiative and without confirming orders from Custer, turning back to support the rear guard following an urgent plea for help from that rear guard.
All four fit. The one thing that is paramount though in this scenario is that C Company be given time to get back to the head of Calhoun Coulee, then go down into that coulee. I do not see Company C moving across country down near the river, in front of Greasy Grass Ridge then up onto F-F. Don't think they would have ever made it past the front of GG Ridge, much less up onto F-F. Flanking fire would have stopped them dead in that low ground.
Colt take a look at this if you please, and give me your thoughts.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on May 11, 2016 17:09:03 GMT
Well shut my pie hole, and I will. I sincerely enjoy logic and the opportunity to garner new learnings. While we may be off the mark, we have certainly opened new avenues of thought.
Regards, Tom
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Post by Beth on May 11, 2016 18:23:34 GMT
Brilliant conversation.
Can I ask for a couple things added to the map? an indication as to which way is North and the approximate areas that the different companies would be? I know Keogh would be I am feeling particularly directionally challenged today and had to refer to other maps for references. Plus it would make things easier for anyone who comes along in the future who might be just beginning with their interest in LBH.
Actually it would ALWAYS be appreciated if maps have an arrow pointing north-ish. Seriously. I know how different things relate to each other but I am forever confused on directions. Sitting in my living room right now I couldn't tell you which way is North.
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Post by yanmacca on May 11, 2016 19:37:18 GMT
Beth it looks like crap but it corresponds with the ones I have been posting up for Chuck with my added direction arrow for north.
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on May 11, 2016 22:05:06 GMT
There has always been the accounts that Custer waited a long time on Cemetery Ridge. Could that be that having sent C and I back to retrieve L he was awaiting their return? Cheers
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Post by quincannon on May 11, 2016 22:51:38 GMT
Don't think so Mac. If he had to send to companies back to extract his rear, he was already up to his eyeballs in do-do. Having to extract that rear guard would mean he is already cut off and nearly surrounded.
I can't account for those tales of wait. What I do think though is that they were not waiting, like waiting for a bus. They were waiting engaged with someone, probably shooters that had crossed to the east banks but had not yet gotten their Mojo into high gear. It must have been serious enough that he could not pull up stakes and leave.
The cautionary tale here is that we key in on a word like waiting, not at all knowing what the original reporter meant. It would have helped if both sides spoke the King's English, but having to filter everything through translaters, it is so very hard to tell.
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on May 12, 2016 3:20:44 GMT
Waiting is an inexact term. I always felt that any delay was probably dealing with wounded, say Smith. Looking at Ian's L shape map. If it was Company E in the line parallel to the river and they were hit by the suicide boys, might they not be pushed south and go "over the hill" and end up killed in Deep Ravine? Leaving Company F and HQ to be forced to LSH. Cheers
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Post by deadwoodgultch on May 12, 2016 11:40:03 GMT
Chuck, Mac
Distances/time/communication become big issues with regard to this battle. For those who have visited the battlefield, I want you to be aware that at least one marker was existent where Chuck's favorite burger is prepared, and Kellogg was located(originally low)in CH ravine. Think of the distance of the ride from those locations to Calhoun Hill, the time to make that ride, the sight lines, and the logistical issues piling up. There were at least 5 markers under the Visitors center. Was/were the marker/markers at the restaurant, those of attempted escapees or part of operations? Trivia, a marker from the restaurant became part of someone's home foundation.
We are questioning conventional theory here and suggesting a number of tactical issues that all contributed to the battle outcome. Was the move to Ford D an attempted attack or a scout? How many companies left in Keogh sector, if any? Communication and link up with support(Benteen/Reno)is a two way responsibility. While I grant the note to Benteen was an attempt, was the messenger the right guy? Should someone who delivered that note, not have been able to conduct Benteen to where he was required to be? Should Benteen have asked Martini to conduct him? So many questions.
There was much sloppy work done this day, by all of the Army senior players. There were a large number of assumptions made, the RCOI, but no serious investigation done. The investigation has been done mostly by amateurs for 140 years. The archeological finds have been called suspect, but still we continue. Someone, Fred, Green, should publish "The Little Bighorn, an Alternate View," Gordie took a shot at it, and not bad either. If he had lived to publish it, it may have been more definitive. He got much of his information from local NA's while he lived in the area. I am not touting the book, just saying that most of the folks that write on the topic play down the NA perspective, while relying on speculation.
Regards, Tom
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Post by yanmacca on May 12, 2016 12:47:58 GMT
Here is an account by Joseph White Bull (Lakota), I have type it out without making any changes, so you will have to bear with it.
The women and children were stopped about a mile, and Custer stopped about straight across from the camp. There were four companies. Custer was in the 2nd from the north. After they were killed, that took a look and was were Custer was laying.
The Indians see the women folks, and they stay between the troops and the women. White Bull was on the east end, and White Bull took a centre run, but they did not hit him. The second time he said he was not going to turn back. He charged on the last company. When White Bull started , the rest of the Indians started, and the last bunch run in to the 2nd bunch, and the 2nd runs into the 3rd, and all the soldiers get on their horses, and when they were between the two companies, White Bull pulls a white off his horse.
When the 1st reached the 2nd, they don’t run straight. Some run toward the river and they were all killed. White Bull killed a man before he pulled the man off his horse. The 4th company went toward the 3rd company in the draw but they don’t go any farther.
Between the 2nd and 3rd companies, after he pulled the man off his horse, White Bull captured a gun and belt from a dead soldier. White Bull had two first coups. The 4th company had lost their horses. They had white horses, that was the grey horse troop.
White Bull was chasing horses, and an Indian came in front of White Bull and cut him out. The 3rd company had bay and white horses at the time, but they soon lost them. Sorrels, bays and whites were in the 3rd company from the 1st and 2nd.
Before the 3rd company turned their horses loose, they ran south and all except one were killed; but the horse was shot from under him. This might have been the man where the man fought from the hill. Butler must have been from the 2nd or 3rd company, but White Bull didn’t see him. White Bull did not. Down at Reno there were two soldiers got away and the Indians killed one and the other killed himself.
The white men from the 1st and 2nd companies were on horseback. They still had their horses when they got to the 3rd and then they run from the 3rd company and they were all killed.
The 1st company was charged by White Bull and his band. The 4th company start to run towards the hill. Most of them don’t get to the top, and lay down shooting, and White Bull was on the east side and Crazy Horses wanted to charge.
I know it is heavy going and things get messy regarding the companies, but he is clear that four companies went forward to get to the non-coms and the Indians put themselves between the women and the soldiers.
Here is the horse colours for reference and 1st Sergeant Butler was in L Company.
"F," "I," and "L" Companies--bays "C" Company--light sorrels "E" Company--Greys
Yan.
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Post by BrevetorCoffin on May 12, 2016 13:22:47 GMT
Here is an account by Joseph White Bull (Lakota), I have type it out without making any changes, so you will have to bear with it. The women and children were stopped about a mile, and Custer stopped about straight across from the camp. There were four companies. Custer was in the 2nd from the north. After they were killed, that took a look and was were Custer was laying.
The Indians see the women folks, and they stay between the troops and the women. White Bull was on the east end, and White Bull took a centre run, but they did not hit him. The second time he said he was not going to turn back. He charged on the last company. When White Bull started , the rest of the Indians started, and the last bunch run in to the 2nd bunch, and the 2nd runs into the 3rd, and all the soldiers get on their horses, and when they were between the two companies, White Bull pulls a white off his horse.
When the 1st reached the 2nd, they don’t run straight. Some run toward the river and they were all killed. White Bull killed a man before he pulled the man off his horse. The 4th company went toward the 3rd company in the draw but they don’t go any farther.
Between the 2nd and 3rd companies, after he pulled the man off his horse, White Bull captured a gun and belt from a dead soldier. White Bull had two first coups. The 4th company had lost their horses. They had white horses, that was the grey horse troop.
White Bull was chasing horses, and an Indian came in front of White Bull and cut him out. The 3rd company had bay and white horses at the time, but they soon lost them. Sorrels, bays and whites were in the 3rd company from the 1st and 2nd.
Before the 3rd company turned their horses loose, they ran south and all except one were killed; but the horse was shot from under him. This might have been the man where the man fought from the hill. Butler must have been from the 2nd or 3rd company, but White Bull didn’t see him. White Bull did not. Down at Reno there were two soldiers got away and the Indians killed one and the killed himself.
The white men from the 1st and 2nd companies were on horseback. They still had their horses when they got to the 3rd and then they run from the 3rd company and they were all killed.
The 1st company was charged by White Bull and his band. The 4th company start to run towards the hill. Most of them don’t get to the top, and lay down shooting, and White Bull was on the east side and Crazy Horses wanted to charge.
I know it is heavy going and things get messy regarding the companies, but he is clear that four companies went forward to get to the non-coms and the Indians put themselves between the women and the soldiers. Here is the horse colours for reference and 1st Sergeant Butler was in L Company. "F," "I," and "L" Companies--bays "C" Company--light sorrels "E" Company--Greys Yan. Ian, were the horse colors used to determine number of companies in this narrative. Otherwise, why would N/A warriors have any clue or interest in what a "troop" was? I also see above 3 companies with bays which, to my mind, would really confuse the issue.
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Post by yanmacca on May 12, 2016 13:34:30 GMT
David, that account was done in 1930 and was conducted by Walter Campbell along with a stenographer called Dallas McCoid, it was done through an interpreter named Lakota Sam Eagle Chase. The interview itself was conducted in question and answer manner.
So if WB mention a horse colour, then I think he was just doing what anyone who used horses on a regular basis would do.
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Post by quincannon on May 12, 2016 14:07:48 GMT
Same caution as David.
Somewhat related. I have mentioned this before, but probably requires reminding of.
Dismiss from your mind now and forever that when two or more companies rode together that it looked anything like how Ford depicts it in his movies. Ford is using a parade ground formation all closed up and pretty.
The reality is, and it enters both this and the dynamics thread, is that four companies of cavalry while on the march would probably stretch out to somewhere between four to six hundred meters. Figure 75 to 100 between each company, and staggered right and left off the centerline of march. Take those figures and calculate on a map how far back that column would be when the head of it reaches cemetery ridge.
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Post by yanmacca on May 12, 2016 14:16:43 GMT
I just thought that any accounts that mention the number of companies should warrant a mention, they would look like groups to the Indians, these could be platoons rather than companies, but with these units being so small would they bother dividing them?
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