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Post by quincannon on Jan 11, 2016 3:44:15 GMT
Matt: Please outline for us how you feel Reno and Benteen failed. I am looking here for specificity where they both bear personal responsibility for failure.
There is no doubt that both failed to accomplish the mission(s) they were given by their commander. What I am getting at here is did they fail or were the missions given doomed to failure fro the start. There is a difference.
Perhaps this has drifted away from JSIT once again, and needs another thread, or perhaps Custer as a commander is the correct venue. Mod 1 will look in and decide I am sure.
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Post by Beth on Jan 11, 2016 19:58:33 GMT
Is the inability to carry out an order from a superior officer considered a fail? Who should be blamed for the fail?
Basically if an officer orders someone to take a boat, cross the river and attack but when the they get to the river and there is no boat and no other way to cross the river would that be the officer's failure or whoever is ordered?
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Post by Beth on Jan 11, 2016 22:18:06 GMT
Matt, to be fair would you also list what Custer's failings (if any) would have been?
(the reason I ask is because once Custer's failings are understood, it may change how you look at Benteen and Reno)
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colt45
First Lieutenant
Posts: 439
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Post by colt45 on Jan 11, 2016 22:43:14 GMT
Matt, Reno faced about 900 Indians to his 140 men, approximately. He also was led to believe Custer was going to support him with the whole regiment. He has almost 10 to 1 odds against him, with the Indians getting around to his rear, effectively cutting him off from retreating to Ford A. The commander on the scene has the discretion to take whatever actions he deems prudent to either carry out his mission, or save his unit from destruction. The Indians voted not to let Reno get to the village, thus he could not accomplish his mission of charging the village, though he tried. Now he is being surrounded. Next priority is save his battalion from destruction. His breakout of the timber was his only viable course of action. Even Indian accounts tell of him breaking out just as they were getting ready to assault him in the timber. Remember, he only had 100 rounds of ammo per man, and they spent a lot of it on the skirmish line.
Given all of this, how did Reno fail? He couldn't get to the village, so you could consider that a failure. He kept his battalion from being slaughtered in the timber, so I don't think we can count that as a failure. Once he reached the bluffs, he unit was in no condition to go north to Custer, and he didn't know where Custer was anyway.
Now to Benteen. He did not scout all the way to the Little Bighorn river, as he was instructed, so you could consider that a failing, except that he exercised his judgement to return to the main trail when it became apparent that there were no Indians in the vicinity. He made a decision that was proper given the fact he knew the 7th was near to a village and action was probably imminent. Now he receives a note that says big village, come on, be quick. Ok, where in the note from Martini does it tell Benteen where to come to? He is also told twice to bring the packs. When he arrives at the point where Reno and Custer's trails separate, he is able to see the last of the valley fight, where troopers are going up the bluffs, and Indian scouts indicate to him to come up the bluffs, which he does. So far, I don't see where he disobeyed an order, other than he didn't continue the scout all the way to the LBH river.
Once on the bluffs, he being a captain, is subordinate to a major, which is Reno. Reno requests that he help his beaten unit. In the military, such a request is not a request, it is an order when it comes from a superior. As to Custer, where was Benteen supposed to be quick in coming to? Does he know where Custer is? If he charges northbound and ignores Reno, and lives, he can be court-martialed for disobeying instructions to stay and help the Reno battalion.
No, Reno and Benteen's actions after Custer separated from them had no bearing on Custer's fate. That was his doing. Those two officers did what they had to and as a result, they and about half the regiment survived. Neither man is without faults, to be sure, but in the time period we are discussing, it is hard to fault them for Custer's destruction.
Blaming Reno and Benteen was the easy way out for the Custer sycophants back in 1876 and it still persists today. Did Benteen dislike Custer? Absolutely. Was Reno a well-liked officer? No. But both men did their duty on 25Jun1876 through 26Jun1876. Custer was the regimental commander. He was and is the person who holds the ultimate accountability for what happened.
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Post by quincannon on Jan 11, 2016 23:21:40 GMT
Matt: Any rebuttal I would offer would be identical to the one Colt offered. Does not seem much point in piling on to reinforce what Colt said.
Now keep in mind, while Colt and I did not go to the same school, we did both read from the same holy writ.
One of the reasons this board exists is to get away from the Reno/Benteen and the Custer fan boys. There are far to many of them elsewhere. Early on the founding members resolved to be fair to all participants across the board, making judgments only on what they did, not our emotions toward them pro or con. Hard work.
I asked for your opinion, and you gave me what I asked for. May I suggest you file that opinion away for future reference, and say in a year or so on this board, take it out and see if that opinion has changed. My money would be on that it does, for you seem a fair minded individual.
Let me offer a couple of things to think about:
Reno: Reno has engaged in a firefight for somewhere between twenty and thirty minutes. Let us make the assumption (and I believe it is a fairly accurate one based on subsequent evidence) that he expended about 50 percent of his ammunition as he withdrew to the timber. He must make a decision as to what to do next.
1) Does he stay in the timber longer thus depleting even more ammunition?
2) Does he make the very difficult decision to break out? By that time he is completely surrounded, with more Indians to his rear than front. If he breaks out there will be a termination point of that break out where he is still vulnerable. A breakout is a high casualty expected operation ALWAYS. Does he delay the breakout decision until his ammunition levels near bingo, or does he go while he still can, having probably just enough ammunition for a ghost of a chance of both fighting through, then either defending better ground or breaking contact?
Benteen:
Your boss tells you (an order) to go to a certain place and he will meet you there. You get in your car and travel down a lonely road, so lonely that you have seen no other car in more than an hour, that is so far in the boondocks there is no cell phone coverage. On your journey to meet you boss, you happen upon a severe traffic accident, where there are some injured that need immediate attention. Do you stop and offer your services to mitigate the situation you have come upon, or do you say, can't do it, the boss told me to meet him, I must obey orders.
This takes all the who has the authority to countermand out of the problem and places the judgment call directly on your shoulders. Reno, as senior officer present had the right and obligation if he thought it was necessary by change of situation to countermand any previous order Benteen had received. That's where holy writ comes in. Dismiss the writ though and call the shot based upon your own sense of right and wrong.
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Post by Beth on Jan 12, 2016 0:37:49 GMT
I think that a couple other points need to be added to the discussion.
1. If Reno had stayed in the timber--would it have made any difference for Custer?
2. Since Custer's message to Benteen is ambiguous Benteen might have considered two options
a. If Benteen had headed to the big village in the valley what would have happened to Custer? b. If Benteen had disobeyed Reno's orders and headed to Custer would he have been able to reach Custer in time?
Finally consider these points. In the years since Washita, is there any evidence of Benteen willfully disobeying an order from Custer? Do you think that Benteen was the type of man who would let over 200 men die just to spit Custer?
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Post by quincannon on Jan 12, 2016 2:22:11 GMT
Arguable points Beth.
1. Not as long as there were enough Indians, not currently engaged with Reno, who could and would react to any threat Custer may offer.
2. Custer's message to Benteen was so ambiguous that almost any interpretation could be given to it. We have discussed order writing here and other places so much, as it pertains to that note, that any further effort would be somewhere between a root canal, and being beaten with an iron pipe. The most likely meaning is come to me (Custer), but that is after a 140 years of reflection, by a bazillion people. In the heat of the moment though, who knows, and speaking of who knows, how does Benteen know that Custer is not in the valley. Martini knew where Custer was when the note was sent, but did not know his intentions or what happened after he left.
a. The same thing would happen as happened in history.
b. There is better than a ninety nine and ninety nine one hundreds chance that he would not have made it beyond, either Weir Point or L-N-C Ridges, depending upon which route he took.
As to your last. There has probably never been a commissioned officer in any army in the world, since the beginning of time that has never disobeyed or ignored an order. They are both willful acts. I know I have, and given the same circumstances would do it again. Some orders are dumb. Some orders are issued without a full appreciation of the existing situation. Some orders are issued by people who do not have a clue as to what they are about. It is just like any other walk of life. Did I mention some orders are dumb?
As to Benteen disobeying or ignoring an order out of spite, costing as a result the lives of over two hundred soldiers. Not in a million years, and if he did I hope he burns for eternity in the hottest corner of hell.
Don't know if you watch Madam Secretary or not but last night the President (Keith Caradine) related a story of his youth in Vietnam. He had been in action and lost three men. His company commander put him in for a medal for his actions. The President/Platoon Leader says to his CO - I don't deserve a medal for what I did. The company commander says back to him - You don't understand. You're not getting a medal for what you did. You are getting a medal for having to live with what you did. Every once and a while there is some very truthful and telling line that comes out of what is normally a vast wasteland.
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Post by yanmacca on Jan 12, 2016 14:17:14 GMT
Matt I think if Custer knew these three things on the 24th then he would have altered his plans, one; just how large the village was, two; the Indians resolve to fight and not run, and three; he thought that the column had been spotted.
Now he was wrong about being spotted because the village was caught with its pants down. Also he got it wrong about the Indians running, the way the Indians recovered and took the fight to him would have put him on the back foot.
I must admit that if you were leading this regiment and you saw a hostile village of this magnitude, containing a couple of thousand warriors and these showed no signs of running, then would you still want to tackle it?
Yan.
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colt45
First Lieutenant
Posts: 439
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Post by colt45 on Jan 12, 2016 14:48:16 GMT
Matt, Your points about the timing of leaving the timber are interesting, and it is impossible to know if an extra 15 minutes in the timber would have brought Benteen into the valley, or if it would have made it impossible for Reno to leave the timber. As a "what-if", let's assume Reno stays in the timber that extra 15 minutes. That extra time allows the Indians to completely surround Reno and begin the assault into the timber. Let's also assume Benteen sees Reno in the valley, and he crosses at Ford A to move toward Reno. Benteen now has to fight through 900+ hostiles to reach Reno. Benteen at that time only has his 3 companies, which is about 130 men, give or take. Benteen being in the valley would cause the Indians to bring even more warriors into the valley fight, so now you have 6 companies, fighting in two different groups, each facing odds of at least 10 to 1. Reno's ammunition would be getting very close to gone, leaving his unit with hand-to-hand fighting, and no good hand-to-hand weapon. Benteen will also only have 100 rounds per trooper. He would most likely never get through to Reno and even if he did, you would now wind up with 6 companies in the timber area, all of which are running out of ammo. Remember, at the time Benteen would have crossed Ford A, the packs are still around a mile behind him, moving at the speed of the mules.
Benteen, in this scenario, would most likely be forced back across Ford A, where he could rejoin with the pack train and its ammo, which means there would be 4 companies to deal with the hostiles if they also cross at Ford A and continue the attack on Benteen. Meanwhile, Reno and his unit dies in place in the timber.
The Indians that finished off Reno are now free to join the fight in the north against Custer, so Custer's situation remains unchanged by the events of Reno remaining in the timber an extra 15 minutes and Benteen moving across Ford A to assist Reno. In this scenario there is no way Benteen could have assisted Custer.
Again, in the above scenario, to assist Custer, Benteen would have had to move up the bluffs, disregarding the obvious need Reno has for assistance in the timber, and bring the packs along with him toward Custer. If we assume he is able to follow Custer's route unimpeded, he winds up in the vicinity of Calhoun Hill just in time to meet a whole lot of Indians that have just about finished with Custer's 5 companies, and are now able to turn on him and his 4 companies and pack train. He won't be able to retreat due to the speed of his pack train, and he can also expect to see Indians to his rear, having come from the valley fight after finishing off Reno, who remained in the timber. So now we have a wiped out Reno, a wiped out Custer, and are very soon to have a wiped out Benteen.
In this scenario, we have 600+ dead cavalry and no battle on the 26th, plus a lot of additional markers in the LNC and Calhoun Hill areas. And nothing Reno or Benteen could have done in this scenario would have changed Custer's fate.
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Post by yanmacca on Jan 12, 2016 14:55:03 GMT
I would like to pose a question to you all, now the more I read about the valley fight, the more I feel like it could have been handled better, what I mean is that once Reno deployed in skirmish then things started to go awry, and troopers were syphoned off the line to deal with threats to their horses. This started with M company sending between 10-15 men to clear the timber on the right flank, now this is logical so I will agree with Reno that this needed to be done, now that would leave French with around 33-38 men. So then we have this (my estimates with horse holders taken in to consideration);
A Company: 30 G Company: 27 M Company: 27
Now this is a paltry skirmish line, and to make things worse it had an wide open flank. Reno then goes and detaches half of G company and moves into the timber, now this was down to reports that Indians had infiltrated the area, maybe they had or maybe it was a mistake, but that left McIntosh with around 13 men to defend the line between the timber and A company, now that void would have to be filled and I suppose that Moylan would have to fill this gap, now if his company shuffled over to close the gap with G company, then this would isolate M company which would have a drastic effect on French and his already weakened company as this unit was holding this open flank.
So do you think that Reno made a tactical error here by re-arranging and detaching men in this situation, as this seemed to weaken his skirmish line and shorten its time deployed on the valley floor, because once it moved back to the timber it lost all cohesion and handed the valley over to the enemy.
Yan.
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Post by quincannon on Jan 12, 2016 15:37:59 GMT
Matt: Excellent. You either read a lot or were/are in the trades. Possibly both. Your reasoning is very sound. We will disagree on that 15 minutes, but you sure nailed the root cause of LBH with your first post this morning.
I can fault neither Reno or Benteen for their decisions. You can, and that is what makes interesting discussions without emotional rancor.
You will do very well here. WEelcome aboard.
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Post by quincannon on Jan 12, 2016 18:54:29 GMT
What about the security of the pack train, which the note implies that they are to be covered?
How is Benteen going to reach that "back door" when the valley in the south of the timber is full of Indians from the high ground southwest of the southern most circle to the river?
What would Custer do if he crossed at Ford B? At that point he would be assailed from his rear by all those warriors that were still in camp north of Ford B, primarily Cheyenne?. There were plenty there, who had no trouble at all fixing him in the historical scenario. Once fixed he was done.
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Post by yanmacca on Jan 12, 2016 19:01:45 GMT
Matt, I think that even if Benteen managed to link up with Reno, that they would either be compelled to withdraw or forced on the defensive, there would be too much resistance for them to continue with any attack, plus as some others have said Benteen had a responsibility to the pack train and leaving it open to attack would be a disaster for the rest of the regiment, especially if the Indians captured all the ammo and supplies.
I don’t know if anyone agrees with me but I think that there was still enough firepower and numbers left in that village to give Custer a hard time, that could be one of the reasons why he never set foot (hoof) in the place. To think that every warrior or any male capable of resistance had gone to the Reno fight would be wrong and all you need is around 400-500 and Custer would be in trouble and there was still small bands like Wolftooth to reckon with.
What did Cook say to Martini, “if it’s not safe to return then stay with your company” well that was in Cedar coulee, so they would expect the area to be unhospitable once they made an entrance.
Chuck you got in before me old chum.
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colt45
First Lieutenant
Posts: 439
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Post by colt45 on Jan 12, 2016 19:22:57 GMT
Matt, If Custer had supported Reno by having his 5 companies cross at ford A, as he should have done, then Reno would easily have been able to stay in the timber until Custer came up and attacked or maneuvered west of the Indians. Benteen then would also have crossed at ford A and been in position to follow up the initial attack.
Reno was the advanced guard, meant to make the initial attack and allow Custer to determine how to next respond, by either maneuvering around the Indians, or by pitching in directly to add firepower to the assault. If Custer had been about 15 minutes behind Reno, then even when Reno pulled back into the timber, he would not have had to break out as the Indians in Reno's rear would suddenly find Custer in their rear, which most likely would have caused the Indians to pull back toward the village. If they had done that, then Reno and Custer both could resume the attack into the village, knowing Benteen and the packs are a short time behind.
If we assume Reno held on and that Benteen crossed at ford A, Custer probably would have continued north to the ford D area. Ford B was in the middle of the village and would not have been a good place for Custer to cross (See the JSIT thread for more on the ford D theory). Crossing at ford B puts Custer into an instantly surrounded situation, with the river to his rear and hostiles on 3 sides. I think Benteen would have crossed at ford A to assist in the valley if Reno was still there because the note never said where to come to, and since he didn't know Custer was not in the valley, he would have assumed that was where he was needed. I think his presence to the south of the Indians surrounding Reno would have eliminated the need for a breakout at the time Reno conducted it, but there were more than enough hostiles to go around and I wonder if Benteen would have been able to actually reach Reno. At some point, Reno would have been forced to breakout, but if Benteen were in the valley, he could breakout in the direction of Benteen, rather than toward the bluffs.
These what-ifs are quite entertaining as it lets us envision other options and explore the possibilities. They also sometimes turn us on to a fact or two that has been overlooked. Keep up the what-ifs. We have to question everything, especially things that have long been accepted as truths. I look forward to more of your posts.
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Post by Beth on Jan 12, 2016 19:43:30 GMT
Isn't one of the problems with Ford B is that it acts as the small end of a funnel, only allowing one or two men/horses in at a time? At that rate, they would become like ducks in a shooting gallery?
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