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Post by quincannon on Dec 17, 2015 16:40:38 GMT
Tom: I don't think the JSIT story means a north to south battle flow at all. If we accept JSIT (not saying I do - more evidence and evaluation required) then the battle flow started when they first engaged Wolf Tooth and moved north. We have no evidence of but a general belief that Calhoun was engaged on his hill long before Custer, again in the south.
If anyone were to say that the north was the place of decision then I can accept that, but it is a long way removed from the Harper story.
The Harper story though can coexist with the others, and somewhere in the middle of the two versions we will find truth if we look hard enough.
Conrad: I don't and have never believed there were any markers in the present cemetery.
These stories have a life of their own, and that life becomes fact as time goes by.
Early on, as early as 1942 the fiction of a bomb going down the stack of the Arizona caused her to blow up. There is that film of her explosion taken from the hospital ship nearby clearly showing a great plume of some coming from her stack. The monument erected on Ford Island states a bomb went down her stack. Every wartime publication that addressed the matter said the same. The film became fact. The truth was far different. When Arizona's superstructure was salvaged it became clear that nothing went down her stack, the grating over that stack was completely intact, and untouched. When the magazine was hit, the explosion vented up the stack and through the grating. That was the fact. You still frequently see recently published material about the down the stack hit, and the story is still widely spread, and its is just not true. The historical lie often lives long after the truth is known.
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Post by yanmacca on Dec 17, 2015 19:00:51 GMT
When we think of ford D we naturally look towards the alleged ford north of the village, but when I found this scanned document of the Bonafede map, I noticed a crossing point called Gibbons ford, now this is more to the east then ford D and shorter for Custer to travel, it also looks closer to the spot where Wolftooth said the soldiers tried to cross (check out the JSIT map I posted on the Calhoun hill thread), I would tend to think that this fording spot would be there on the day of the battle and if not intended to be used by the Cavalry then the Indians would have used it. Make a note of the old river route too.
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mac
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Post by mac on Dec 18, 2015 0:16:47 GMT
Gibbon's ford is quite narrow today but perhaps was broader and more suitable for Custer given the former location of the river. I still can't see how Company C could get from the north to where they fell in the south. Cheers
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Post by quincannon on Dec 18, 2015 5:17:05 GMT
Can't figure it out either Mac, but I am still not willing to throw the JSIT baby out with the Company C bathwater.
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mac
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Post by mac on Dec 18, 2015 7:24:18 GMT
Fair enough too! It could still be just that C was left with L. I cannot see how the theory of a defeat flowing from the north works but I can see the actions in the north and south being fairly contemporaneous. Anyone who has read the book might kick in some ideas. I will still be happy to continue this discussion by considering also Custer's retro motion from ford D and the movements up to LSH.
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Dec 18, 2015 12:33:34 GMT
I intend to go to Canada and visit Tori and her family. While there I am going to look at Gordie's work. I hope we are all past the last chapter in his book which Gordie did not write. It at best allowed the book to be published but for me was a high price to pay.
As far as the six markers or evidence of six troopers both Scott and Donahue discussed it in our 2014 field trip. I think to get the full flavor of what is going on and available a visit during June and the events along with it are a good thing to do.
If Donahue is correct in his route that he discovered a few years ago in a map it would put Custer right across from LNC when entering MTC.
If you want a good handle on it then get Weibert's book Custer, Cases, and Cartridges. He mapped out where he found soldier and Indian positions. He placed metal stakes in the ground and they are still there.
His presentation of data was surprising to me on how well he recorded it.
That said I think that Henry Weibert's account of the battle fits well with Gordie's. I would not be surprised if he knew Henry. Gordie had picked the 7th Ranch for our working base while there and it had been the Weibert ranch.
In trying to imagine how to move troops across in a general northern direction its hard not to be close to the present day road. You can go anywhere you want but elevation changes effect rate of travel and maintaining formations.
We have ridden along the eastern boundary of the Custer Battlefield all the way to highway 212 on two occasions. One trip we rode across retreat crossing and the other the river was to high. That was the year of floods and the blue building at bottom of the hill near the casino had 3 feet of water marks on it.
I don't know how we ever thought that riding down a creek or drainage means riding in the bottom. I can not think of doing that unless it is a steep sided ravine and the vegetation is not to thick. Secondly from a security view that seems to invite an ambush. I never believed that military would do that unless a last resort. In the case of Cedar Coulee the left side is easy to ride down. You can do it with the Real Birds who rent horses at a reasonable rate.
I still believe the Cheyenne camp was north of MTF and maybe not visible until moving either being on top of Weir or north of it. If you plug in Pvt. Thompson that would put Custer on the bluffs north of Weir. What is coincident is that the route Donahue found is just back from the edge where Thompson said he saw Custer. Donahue doesn't believe Thompson so rejects everything he states.
We know he was there so there is a probability even if low that he saw something. Apparently Camp was not willing to go to the river in the route that Thompson states he traveled.
I am a hands on learner and its takes me a while to sort things out. For years I never thought anything about moving north of MTC because I thought it was error to move in that direction and everyone ends up dead so no witness by soldiers moving with Custer. The Indian accounts depend on which drainage they used and at what time they were there.
We sometimes treat the Indian accounts as incomplete since they don't follow Custer's movements. I think if an Indian account did that it would be suspect.
So to get a grip on the opposing theories for me one has the ride north on offense and the other a running battle?
I think both are conducted on the same pieces of ground so it is a matter of timing and Indian forces.
In our 2014 field trip Donahue mentioned Gordie's book and the movement north. I think he and Scott presented several pictures and discovered artifacts that will be in a future book. The hard part is that the whole story is not out until they publish.
There were also two markers down near the trading post owned by Putt. Putt states the markers were used in a construction of a house on the reservation.
I think any movement north puts you near LSH and the cemetery area. Once past that elevation it is flat ground to the river and a crossing. The Ford Ds there are past the NPS service road and in the bend where the river head back toward the highway.
The area would be where they removed material to make the new and current entrance road. The old road went to the housing and then turned toward the stone building.
Before the road construction to the entrance you could ride from the northern Ford Ds around the cemetery ridge and behind LSH all the way to Keogh's location as fast as your horse would travel. The back side of the Keogh location has a lot of cover where you can approach within firearms distance without being seen. I call it cover because it is terrain features rather than vegetation concealment.
Regards
Steve
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Dec 18, 2015 12:46:24 GMT
Looking at Yan's map, I can't see Custer going as far east through that cut-up country as JSIT implies. Also, I think Mac is right when he says that Custer wanted to be seen. If he still thought the village was running (and he had no reason not to apart from Boston maybe telling him), a quick demonstration at Ford B and then leaving Company L like a beacon on the hill says "soldier's are here, refugees keep going north". Unfortunately they also served as magnets for angry warriors. Cheers, conrad I agree. I think the notes state that a park employee traced the route onto a 1956 brochure. I don't we are looking at something drawn by JSIT rather his route put on paper. Notice the note on 1877 cases.
For me the key is the end on the north side where the cemetery and the flats of the river are near the village.
Regards
Steve
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Dec 18, 2015 12:58:47 GMT
As far as any theory of the approach to MTC they all hit MTC in a relatively close range of distance. Even if you ride down SSR at the bottom it puts you into Cedar Coulee so the difference there is the width of Cedar coulee.
Riding up the other side has the same concentration of preferred routes. Follow a ridgeline putting cover between you and the village. I think if you are riding there any of you would pick relatively the same locations to move into and out of MTC.
Regards
Steve
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Post by yanmacca on Dec 18, 2015 14:57:34 GMT
I would expect that Custer did use MTC at some point, either to cross to the eastern ridges or to travel down a ways before bearing right again to the ridges. Going back to the two Crows, they saw Custer’s column of Luce ridge and they certainly must have known what this column looked like and if it had split into two.
At the moment I am not convinced that they rode all the way down MTC to the flats at the bottom and tried to cross.
Going back to C Company, well I would expect that if they move back south then they would probably run into the same Indians who would have killed them if they tried to run north, as far as Indian attacks go then two main thrusts were made by Lame White Man and Crazy Horse, we also have the suicide boys (Who sound like a new action movie), most of what happened next would probably have rode in the wake of these incidents as the Indians gathered momentum.
Yan.
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Post by quincannon on Dec 18, 2015 17:10:04 GMT
Cannot you go to the eastern side of Sharpshooter Ridge and cross over to L-N-C without entering Medicine Tail Coulee?
Not saying I agree with this as sound tactics but WHIFF Custer's orders to his commanders were --- Harrington watch that ford down there (B from FFR), Calhoun keep those people back there off of me, Keogh move over there (swale) and watch for Benteen, keep his route of march clean, the rest of you are with me. That is a near perfect fit for the JSIT narrative, and matches the markers.
I still have no reason to doubt JSIT. Don't think he intended to blow any smoke up anyone's hind parts, motivated only to shed more light, where light needs shedding.
The problem with all of this for me is that many of the moves that Custer apparently makes are so foreign to the training of my lifetime. The tactical principles I and others learned are identical to those in practice since ancient Greece and Rome, if not before. The techniques, procedures, weapons, and means of mobility in implementing these tactics are always evolving, but the basic tactical principles remain the same.
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Post by yanmacca on Dec 18, 2015 17:50:51 GMT
So really then Chuck we could be left with Custer’s whole battalion arriving from LNC to the area behind battle ridge, he then takes his HQ to view the area below and makes up his mind to temporary hold this position. Now if Calhoun leaves his mounts in horse holder’s ravine and files out his men on foot to take up skirmish position, then these men would have only 50 rounds each, the rest would be back out of sight in the ravine with the reserve ammo (could be a hundred or so yards away?), which would be ok because they are only holding the place temporally.
The way you have Custer doling out orders to company commanders would reiterate what we were discussing last week, and that was that Keogh had no battalion only his own company and he, Harrington and Calhoun acted independently.
That still rules out any ford B foray, which is still controversial but that is what we are here for, out with old and in with the new.
Yan.
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Post by quincannon on Dec 18, 2015 18:28:14 GMT
I don't know if those "orders" are any way accurate. Don't like them one darned bit, if in fact that is what Custer was up to with them. I never wish to see combat power doled out in penny packets, it greatly effects my sensibilities and state of well being.
Don't know if you bowl ten pins in the UK, but here the norm is a five man team. What Custer apparently did with regards to combat power is send one team member to the rest room, another to the hamburger stand, and still another out to the parking lot to lock his car, then decide to take on the other five men team with himself and but one other. Did not realize that there were muggers in the parking lot, food poisoning at the hamburger stand, and the guy in the rest room slipped on a wet floor, and none would be rejoining him.
My intent on posting my version of orders was to illustrate the fragmentary nature of giving direction in a combat situation. That is OK to some extent with pro's, they can take it from where Custer would have left off. Specificity of direction though is more important with a Little League Team then it is with the New York Yankees.
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colt45
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Post by colt45 on Dec 18, 2015 18:48:41 GMT
Those hypothetical orders, QC, the way you laid them out, would make sense if Custer still believes he is in no immediate danger and is still in control of events and is still on the offensive, believing the Indians would never leave the village and attack in force. I agree that diluting his combat power in the manner described is downright dumb, but is understandable if Custer's mindset at the time is as I described above. He never played the whiff game about what will the Indians do when they see him on calhoun hill and battle ridge. From my point of view, all his actions show a man who thinks everything is going just fine and he is dictating all the action and is in complete control.
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colt45
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Post by colt45 on Dec 18, 2015 19:02:19 GMT
I downloaded and blew up the map that JSIT made and it seems to support the theory that C company probably went with E company toward deep ravine. The arrows indicating cavalry movement seems to show a move along what became SSL. If that is the case, C company might have been on the left flank, with E company in the middle, and F company on the right, still on cemetery ridge. C company could have been forced over the ridge into calhoun coulee, and from there forced back up toward calhoun hill.
Strangely enough, if things transpired this way, we could have both a battle flow from north to south (C company, E and F company) and a flow from south to north (L company, I company). This dual direction battle flow could occur if actions were occurring at the same time at both calhoun hill and cemetery ridge. We tend to serialize the battle as occurring one event or site at a time, but we know it really never happens like that, so it is very possible that at the same time L company is being pushed northward, C company is being pushed south and east, and E and F are being pushed toward LSH, and I company is being trapped in place for the most part, with some fleeing toward LSH. It is entirely possible the last action occurred in the calhoun hill area, with L and C fleeing northward. I know Fox believes the last man to die was in the vicinity of deep raving due to the number of Indians firing on that man, but that man could have been the last to die in that particular area. There might have been stragglers from C still heading toward LSH.
So we have several different battles occurring at the same time at different sites on the battlefield. The presumed flight from LSH toward deep ravine might be one of those "facts" that has no well-founded basis for being a fact. SSL could very well have been a skirmish line, at least briefly. Just more things to ponder based on JSIT's map and story.
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Post by yanmacca on Dec 18, 2015 19:18:03 GMT
I have seen stuff today and yesterday that makes me wonder why we don’t look at things before our very eyes, Colt said south skirmish line, now that has been kicked in touch due to people saying no, it was a few men fleeing, but was it? Tom said about Crazy Horse ravine, hmmm..why is it called that, no it can’t be because CH went that way to hit the soldiers from the rear because everyone knows that they went up deep ravine, do they?
When I first joined this board one of the augments was about Custer and his whole battalion riding straight down MTC and right towards ford B, a few experts said that after the lead element got a smacking the rest were pushed back by huge numbers of warriors, now I have never thought this to be the case and over the last week or so things have been discussed that has made me think that not only was the MTC/ford B not true but also some of the other things that some say should be set in stone.
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