Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2015 11:38:06 GMT
Looking back over Fred's book, it seems a lot of the accounts, especially the early ones, weren't sure that Custer went anywhere near Ford B.
Cheers,
conrad
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Dec 15, 2015 11:52:18 GMT
Hi Conrad, one of the reasons I posted that map was to show everyone the area in question, now you have posted your reasons on how you think Custer may have took a rather different approach, which is good and it is showing that the map is doing its job as a reference to the area and how we can all process it and give our opinions.
Yan.
|
|
mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
|
Post by mac on Dec 15, 2015 12:15:22 GMT
Heading to his first sight of the village Custer is clearly in attack mode. We know the village was not what he was expecting from the fact that he mentioned in the Benteen note "Big village", so this original attack plan was for a smaller grouping not a big village. I just think that he was still in attack mode and not changing to reconaissance. If that is the case why go to Ford B where there is a big, densely packed village which you would never ride into. So he either did not go there or he went for some other reason. The only one that makes sense to me is to try to break up the village by intimidation, so that he can get at them. I would agree too that there is an element of; see how much of the village was on the move. There were only two ways that I can see that he could win. Stay in the valley in force and take them on there. Reach them when they are separating and can be attacked in smaller groups. Stories relating to a ford encounter could, it seems, apply at either B or D. To me D seems a more likely place for Custer to get his feet wet as it is at least beyond the village. More research and thought needed. Cheers
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Dec 15, 2015 12:28:39 GMT
Hi Mac, yes I agree that Custer wouldn’t relish the prospect of entering a village of this size with only 200+ men, plus at the Washita he attacked when they least expected it, but here the whole place was fully alerted and had reacted, it would make sense to cap off the north end and even cross the river, I don’t know if the circles reached that far along the river so he could have an area of ground before he reached the village limits and it could be this area that all the non-coms had gathered, so even if he couldn’t capture them he could chase them back south.
Yan.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Dec 15, 2015 16:27:21 GMT
I agree with Conrad that the country to the east nearer the present highway appears rough. I think Steve has ridden in that area, and perhaps he will comment.
I also think JSIT made those two hand drawn dog legs for a reason.
If you look at the JSIT route though you can fit all the companies into the narrative, and with a potential mission, but Company C, with Company L being a rear guard, watching out for both Wolf Tooth and anyone else coming from the south. That itself is troubling in that a rear guard must remain mobile, and conform to the movements of the main body.
Curiouser and curiouser.
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Dec 15, 2015 16:36:30 GMT
Chuck it is hard to try and rule out any occupation of Calhoun hill, even though I don’t think Custer would cut part of his combat strength to play nurse maid to his rear, but the evidence does lean towards both C and L being around that area and a skirmish line of some sort is known to have operated on Calhoun hill, this would be L company due to the two officers found dead, plus I cannot see L company forming skirmish there after returning from ford D as things would have gotten out of control by then, as you said this is intriguing.
Yan.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Dec 15, 2015 18:00:30 GMT
I, can see Custer moving hell bent across the ridge lines for Ford D. I can see him leaving someone to cover his rear, but not more than one company. I can see him also leaving Company I in the swale, as we have previously spoken about, watching for Benteen.
Remember under this scenario, we must rethink the idea of Custer going to Ford D for purposes of reconnaissance ONLY.
That leaves Company C out of the picture, as far as I am concerned. A couple of things are possible:
Custer leaves a heavy rear guard (C&L), much heavier than one would normally think.
Company C went with Custer, and they ended up where they were by some other means.
Company C had another mission, that of a flank guard. That is a bit much though, even for Custer, The scattering of combat power is a big time no-no Is there any indication in testimony anywhere that a threat from the Ford B crossing was evident to Custer while he was still on the Calhoun Hill site? Don't know, but there is a lot of testimony about some action down that way. They sure as hell got there for some reason, and I would bet the lunch money that it is consistent with JSIT and we just have not found it yet.
Remember. No Ford B means, a non-recognition of threat from there, and the only thing a rear guard would be concerned with is threats from due south and southwest (over the bluffs). It is hard to see what is going on at Ford B from the Calhoun Hill position, and doubly hard if they are on the down slope at the military crest or even further down.
If we cannot somehow fit C in with a legitimate mission or explanation of their presence on F-F, then the JSIT narrative must be partially called into question.
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Dec 15, 2015 18:56:16 GMT
Chuck if these markers are who some believe the bodies of C company men then could they be moving towards Calhoun from north to south and leaving casualties in their wake? (see red area)
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Dec 15, 2015 19:22:26 GMT
Could be, but that would mean that C was with Custer, and Custer somehow split, or was split after Ford D. It would also mean C crossed in front of Greasy Grass Ridge down in the low ground, and sought the natural protection of high ground on F-F Ridge. Boy were they fooled.
Don't think this would be a deliberate move if the bucket of my previous paragraph held even a drop of water.
Alka Seltzer, a shot of whiskey,chest rub, and nap time. It's cold, blowing, and snowing, and my cold is still bad. See you all this evening, maybe.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Dec 15, 2015 19:25:00 GMT
BY THE WAY FOR ALL OF YOU WONDERING WE ARE WHIFFING, AND TEARING THE WHIFF APART PIECE BY PIECE TO DETERMINE SUBSTANCE<
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Dec 15, 2015 19:29:25 GMT
Just a point here, we are expecting night time temperatures to be at level normally associated with mid summer over the next few days, some parts of the country have experience such mild weather that the daffodils have bloomed, crazy totally crazy.
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Dec 15, 2015 19:32:37 GMT
I must say though Whiffery or not (I nearly said midwifery then) I am still thinking that JSIT was correct about the whole five approaching from the ridges and not MTC.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2015 22:13:49 GMT
Quick correction of one of my previous posts: Company L was sitting like a beacon on a hill, not Company C.
Cheers,
Conrad
|
|
colt45
First Lieutenant
Posts: 439
|
Post by colt45 on Dec 15, 2015 23:45:47 GMT
Since JSIT walked the battlefield with his relative (Wolf Tooth?) who fought there, I tend to think his description is probably very accurate, and it makes sense that the 5 companies would have all been on LNC and that none of them approached ford B. It also makes sense that from LNC and the firing thereupon, that there was pressure from Wolf Tooth and maybe some coming across ford B. All 5 companies move to Calhoun Hill and since there was action to his rear I can see leaving a company behind to keep the hostiles from following any further. Leaving I company to wait for Benteen also makes sense since the note said to come quick, and we have to assume that meant come to Custer. C company is the mystery as to when and why they came to be where they were. Custer continuing to ford D for the purposes of recon/attack fits with his overall intentions, along with the delay at cemetery ridge.
But was he able to see enough of a threat coming up Calhoun Coulee to warrant leaving C company behind? I kind of doubt there was a threat there at the time L company was dropped off, so it doesn't seem reasonable to leave C behind at that time, unless there was a flank threat present at the time. I seem to remember an Indian account talking about advancing slowly toward Calhoun Hill on foot and that would indicate that Custer probably would not have seen a threat from that direction at the time he was in the area.
Yan postulates that maybe C company got where they were by coming up Calhoun coulee. This would fit the scenario where E, F, and C all go with Custer to ford D. After halting at cemetery ridge, pressure from deep ravine might have forced Custer to send E and C down SSL to halt the hostile advance toward battle ridge, where Custer had left Keogh. He would know Keogh would be unable to see an attack coming from the west side of BR, so maybe two companies were sent to stem the tide. As things degenerated, maybe C company fled south and was forced back uphill by pressure from GGR, towards L company. That scenario provides one possible explanation for why C company wound up where they did. However, one problem remains. And that is the reported charge of C company. Did that occur as we have always believed, downhill toward GGR? Or could the charge the hostiles talked about occur somewhere else, perhaps from cemetery ridge toward deep ravine?
Going on the premise that JSIT's account is accurate really makes me rethink the battle and how all the elements wound up where they did. We are really doing a major WHIFF on this.
|
|
mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
|
Post by mac on Dec 16, 2015 11:18:51 GMT
Ian your map is exactly what I was thinking. Let me throw in that Smith is on LSH and we have the account of an officer shot from his horse in the river. Could this be Smith at Ford D? Would Custer try to cross at Ford D with only 80 or so men? This kind of discussion is good for creative thought that leads to new ideas. Sure a whiff but a worthwhile one. Cheers
|
|