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Post by quincannon on Dec 18, 2015 21:52:12 GMT
Can't say I can argue with either of you. There is nothing to argue.
Could not agree more with Colt on Custer's state of mind. It is either as Colt describes or Custer is a mad man, no middle ground.
Also agree that we must look at this as being a series of concurrent actions not sequential.
Experts have an selfish investment in defending their own expertise. That's why I don't write books.
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Post by Beth on Dec 19, 2015 0:08:07 GMT
I am a bit confused because I have always figured nearly everything from Calhoun Hill, LSH et al happened concurrently,quickly and without warning. It's hard because every account we read it going to be sequential because there is no other way to tell the story of events--after the fact all stories are going to be the equivalent of a tour guide walking listeners through a battlefield.
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Post by quincannon on Dec 19, 2015 2:06:07 GMT
It's another Pork Chop Hill Beth - It's complicated.
The all of a sudden school of a Wild or Dark Cloud postulates that everything happened concurrently, and it was just a great big U Shaped ambush into which Custer walked fat, dumb and happy. That is a ridiculous postulation on the face of it, for where it to happen that way the Indians would have had to have Custer's route and intentions down pat, and been afforded enough time from a standing start to lay that ambush and spring it. Stuff and nonsense.
The all actions happened only sequentially is the product of Captain Pretend and the Acolytes of Neverland. It is primarily to do with their trying to pin all of the blame on Reno and Benteen. Everything happening sequentially takes more time, and the more time the Custer action took, means the more blame that can be laid at the doorstep of the R and B cowboys.
The concurrent school recognizes that while the movements out of necessity were sequential, To Calhoun Hill to Cemetery Ridge to Ford D, and then back to LSH. the combat action was concurrent. Calhoun being in deep do-do at about the same time Custer was taking his first of many punches. The concurrent combat theory shortens the elapsed time of battle, and there are many asunder who think these people were fighting an overwhelming force of Indians for up to two hours. It was much quicker than that, and as quick as Custer leaving Calhoun Hill and thirty to forty minutes later being stone cold dead.
George Custer was well on his way to his eternal reward before the R and B cowboys even mounted up.
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mac
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Post by mac on Dec 19, 2015 10:19:39 GMT
Agree with Colt on the state of mind. We must ask ourselves how Custer intended to engage with the village. He had seen it was huge and he could see it again from high up MTC. He wanted them in small groups not one giant bunch and he wanted those groups moving north. I suggest a feint down MTC was intended to start a panicked withdrawal north. L and C were placed in a highly visible spot to disuade anyone from trying to escape east and persuade them to break north as much as to be a rear guard. Perhaps the intent was to cause them to break and run then to hit them further north. No panic for Custer, time for Benteen to come on and be there in time for the show. They always run. Cheers
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Post by yanmacca on Dec 19, 2015 14:35:35 GMT
Well that’s the beauty of this site, people can explain their reasons to what they think could have happened, which is a luxury indeed especially when you consider that a couple of years ago some of the suggestions I have made over the last seven days would have resulted in ridicule, then insults. I recall giving my verdict on some of the faults I thought were in some posters theories, and the theory in question was what Chuck mentioned about Custer going straight into a trap down in MTC, and I wish I had just kept my gob shut.
Now going back to the thread, I think that Custer had no intentions of waiting for Benteen, he sent Reno into the attack with only 140 men, while he himself had 60-70 more, so if he drops off L company to cover the southern end of battle ridge, then these troops would be seen by any approaching support from the south (at least I think they would), even without L company Custer would still have with around 150-60 men, so I think he still had enough to do some damage, lets face it he thought Reno could with less.
Also not only did Custer leave L company to anchor his rear and be a beacon, but he may have seen the benefit as the swale area as a place to store the pack train, if Benteen came over the ridge with stack of mules and trooper packers then they would need somewhere to hunker down.
So we now have Custer, his HQ and four companies going for the jugular, as I cannot see this man stopping at this juncture, unless he is forced to retire to the high ground of cemetery ridge and decides to deploy.
Yan.
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Post by quincannon on Dec 19, 2015 17:26:13 GMT
You were confronted by two tactical geniuses Ian, and neither one of them knew B from a bulls butt about tactics, or extending that, TTP in general.
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Dec 19, 2015 19:16:29 GMT
Chuck
I think no matter what route Custer took he had to cross MTC.
Regards
Steve
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Post by yanmacca on Dec 19, 2015 19:50:39 GMT
Steve you know the score better than anyone here or on the two other boards, now I agree with you about GAC using MTC at some point, I recall you mentioning to me a year or two ago that even though the column was moving down MTC, it could have easily deviate and move up to the high ground at any point along the route, on the map I posted the other day you can see two distinct drainages, which if the column used would take them away from the river at angle, the problem is which would be the best to take if you were GAC and wanted to hit the high route.
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Post by quincannon on Dec 19, 2015 20:59:34 GMT
Steve: I was thinking that he could go from the eastern portion of Sharpshooter over to the ridges southeast of the L-N-C complex. Just looked at the map again and Medicine Tail Coulee is one long bugger, and you are absolutely correct. It narrows considerably in the area I was thinking of but it is still there and would have to be crossed.
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Dec 20, 2015 14:06:20 GMT
Steve you know the score better than anyone here or on the two other boards, now I agree with you about GAC using MTC at some point, I recall you mentioning to me a year or two ago that even though the column was moving down MTC, it could have easily deviate and move up to the high ground at any point along the route, on the map I posted the other day you can see two distinct drainages, which if the column used would take them away from the river at angle, the problem is which would be the best to take if you were GAC and wanted to hit the high route. Ian All 3 known routes could easily be a short ride across MTC instead of down MTC. The terrain is more conducive to travel following MTC by first crossing it. What I don't know is how much concern the cavalry would put on ease of movement. For myself that seems the natural thing to do. There are ridges to follow from MTC to the heights. One that we rode put us right on LNC area.
The first time we rode it was with two young Real Birds and they picked the best routes . The next two times we looked for LNC using maps and accounts. We ended up going the same direction. The Real Birds from there turned toward MTF and we rode past Butler's marker.
On our ride with Chip Watts we turned the other direction and looked a few Indian sites where artifacts had been found. Then we skirted the Custer Battlefield boundary on the east side coming out on highway 212.
Regards
Steve
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Post by yanmacca on Dec 20, 2015 19:13:41 GMT
Thanks Steve.
When we try and establish things like routes and such, we do have to take into consideration that Custer had no idea what the terrain was like ahead of him, so once he took to the bluffs he had to rely on Bouyer and the Crows to maybe ride ahead and point the route out as they went, Bouyer would naturally keep to dry water courses and hope they bring them out by the river and possible ford, and Custer (for safety aspects) the high ground.
It could be when Custer found himself in the middle of MTC, he could see that village would be down the end of this coulee and moved to the ridges not only to keep from ambush but to get a good look at the village.
Or I could be talking hogwash and Custer initially struck a trail from SSR.
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mac
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Post by mac on Dec 21, 2015 11:59:43 GMT
The position of Keogh and archaeology of his firing is often given of evidence for a move to Ford B. I would think that if he was simply to cross MTC he would use the same geometry to cover that crossing. Correct? Cheers
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Dec 21, 2015 14:29:39 GMT
I think you are correct mac. That would make more sense to me. I consider myself a rifleman but not a precision rifle shooter. From the positions on LNC general area you can cover movement across MTC. There is no way that I could make hits to cover MTF. It is so far I would not even attempt it.
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Post by yanmacca on Dec 21, 2015 14:36:05 GMT
You know what Mac, the more I weigh things up then the more I go off the idea that any of Custer's me got within cooee of ford B.
Gall said in an account that Custer never reached the river but was met half a mile up a ravine. Another Indian named Respects Nothing said, Custer never went to the river but moved directly from LNC to Calhoun hill. Hollow Horn Bear, Custer never got closer to the river than the ridge south of FFR.
One reference that I think the crossing took place at ford D came from a Cheyenne called Long Forehead, All the Cheyenne men at the Little Big Horn got into the fight with Custer as that was the vicinity of the Cheyenne camp (now were was the Cheyenne circle, was it at the north end of the village?)
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Post by yanmacca on Dec 21, 2015 14:42:05 GMT
One of the reason Custer stayed on the high ground could be because of bands like Wolftooth being active in the area, he had to react to what he could see and 50 or so Indians shouldn’t be stiffed at as a threat, so staying elevated and keeping together would seem like a logical step to me.
Looking at the JSIT map I posted and he relates to two bands of Indians, and one of them looks like they are not far from MTC.
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