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Post by quincannon on Dec 13, 2015 17:13:57 GMT
In answer to a diminishing number of suggestions, this thread is established to examine the narrative of John Stands in Timber (circa 1956) regarding the Cheyenne viewpoint of the battle. JSIT throws a lot of conventional wisdom out the window as it pertains to this battle. Being Cheyenne oriented a lot of the other pieces are missing, and I think that is a good thing for any kind of thorough examination of events. My meaning here is that if other known events cannot be explained then one of three things happened. Those "known" events did not or may not have happened OR, if they did happen inserting them into the Cheyenne narrative should be quite easy, OR the JSIT narrative is bushwa. I find the third an unacceptable alternative at this point.
Beth it would be most helpful to repost those three links here for ready reference. That is particularly requested for the third one containing the hand drawn map.
You reader, have just turned onto the bluffs and are somewhere just south of the Reno Battlefield. Carry on.
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Post by yanmacca on Dec 13, 2015 18:40:47 GMT
Well done Chuck, good introduction and starting point. Well I have taken a snippet from an old map to use as a guide, and there are a few bits of info on it as well, the author gives Custer at Weir Point and Curly being in the area of MTC and Weir point coulee, probably to say that Curly and Bouyer re-joined the column by moving from WP down to MTC. So to get up to the Luce and the rest of the ridges would be pretty easy from there, but would mean going a little further down MTC, which defeats the object as one of the reasons he would have moved on to the high ground would be the threat of ambush from the bluffs to his left.
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Post by Beth on Dec 13, 2015 21:18:40 GMT
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Post by quincannon on Dec 13, 2015 21:52:07 GMT
Ian: That map is totally different from the one at the bottom of page 3 of the JSIT narrative.
In that map/narrative Custer never goes anywhere near Weir Point, but stays completely clear of that area and MTC and sticks to the ridges well to the east (near Highway 8 now Highway 212) until he turns west to the L-N-C ridge line. To me that is the fascinating part of the whole story, which would preclude the whole Ford B thing, and greatly brings into question Custer ever going to 3411 (not to say someone did not).
Both of us have terrible colds today so I am not sure of any lengthy participation in the early stages of this discussion
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Post by yanmacca on Dec 13, 2015 22:36:29 GMT
Chuck I should have explained that the map I put up was nothing to do with JSIT but I can use it as a guide to add lines of approach by me adding lines and we can try and work out a route.
Yan.
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Post by yanmacca on Dec 13, 2015 22:48:32 GMT
The route on that map looks like this (the blue line);
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Post by quincannon on Dec 13, 2015 23:58:24 GMT
Ian: If you look as the JSIT map, as it relates to the one just above you have the JSIT route going off the map on the right upward you another piece if high ground that is close to Highway 212.
That, what is off your map to the upper right corner is the game changer as far as Custer's route goes.
It means he was a lot further east and as such further away from the bluffs, turning westward to L-N-C, then north again following the axis L-N-C-BR.
I think what we have here is when Custer turns west to L-N-C may be in response to sighting or engaging Wolf Tooth.
Also early in the narrative tales are told of security patrols by the Indians and having him spotted in the Busby camp site. I find that being most probable, especially after the encounter with Crook those few days before
Widen the are of the map if you can particularly the top and right side.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Dec 14, 2015 1:38:13 GMT
In both Mary Liberty books with John Stands in Timber, he indicates that they expected the attack, but it came earlier than expected. They knew cavalry was in the area. They even thought that the army might want to talk.
Regards, Tom
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Dec 14, 2015 11:39:02 GMT
If I recall correctly QC discussed this with me, crockery and cutlery were moved, and the discussion was around Custer moving via the east side of Sharpshooters rather than along Cedar coulee. This route seems likely to me if I was intent on reaching the north of the village without being detected. I am intrigued by this discussion. The role of the Cheyenne is being probed here and we might note that their camp was the northernmost. Still thinking. Cheers
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Dec 14, 2015 14:40:29 GMT
Interesting tidbits can also be found in "The Fighting Cheyenne's" by George Bird Grinnell.
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Post by quincannon on Dec 14, 2015 16:46:14 GMT
Custer certainly made an effort to avoid detection from Calhoun Hill onward. It would stand to reason he would also avoid it from the turn onto the bluffs to that point.
I am intrigued by the two dog legs on the JSIT hand drawn map. More than likely they would have originally been generated by Wolf Tooth or some other contemporary. JSIT would not have included them if he did not find them important to the telling of the story. He would have drawn a straight line on an axis L-N-C-BR and called it a day.
I find no reason to doubt Godfrey when he says an identifiable trail was up that way. I have no reason to doubt cartridge finds up there as well. I have no reason at this juncture to doubt Wolf Tooth as told to JSIT.
All in all I find this a whole lot easier to swallow, then Custer getting a case of the stupids and moving down to Ford B. Granted, not much could be seen of the Ford B area from L-N-C, but it is also a given that any dust and smoke in that area would betray presence.
Now to 3411. Martini tells us of Custer going to the bluff edge to view Reno. Custer going, does not mean the presence of all who were with Custer nearby. It is quite possible that Custer traveled some good distance from where his troops were on a leaders recon. We ASSUME the presence of troops nearby 3411, without one shred of proof. That is another guess, speculation, assumption that over the years has become graven in stone fact.
We have a long way to go in this journey.
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Post by yanmacca on Dec 14, 2015 18:46:03 GMT
Here is the whole of the map, I tried to draw out a line leading right along from Calhoun to down near sharpshooters but it made it too big to post, it looks like there is a roadway along the route which we could use as a guide, but it is a long way from either 3411 or Weir Point;
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Post by yanmacca on Dec 14, 2015 19:01:39 GMT
Ford B would be a worry to Custer especially if he saw a build up of Indians in the area, if he had been forced to fire volleys at a couple of bands as he made his way to Calhoun hill then these along with any at the ford below would give him cause for concern, but leaving just one company behind is not a good option to me, don't forget they would have to leave their horses behind and take up positions, now some say that the gully that runs from Calhoun hill to the Keogh sector (horse holders ravine) was used for this, but leaving around twelve men to guard these horses would leave them vulnerable to attack and seeing that Wolftooth alone could have around 40-50 warriors with him would be enough to kill these dozen and scatter the horses, and L company would be left fully exposed with no mounts.
Yan.
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Post by yanmacca on Dec 15, 2015 11:17:50 GMT
Bouyer and a couple of Crow scouts were on Weir and after Bouyer left to join up with Custer the two scouts stayed on the bluffs overlooking the village, I think they even fired off a few rounds in that direction too, anyway they left and ended up meeting up with either Reno or Benteen, but before they left the bluffs they reported seeing Custer’s men on Luce ridge, now if he was on Luce then why would he move back down into MTC and approach the village at ford B, just another clue to Custer and the whole command moving as one onto Calhoun hill, without stopping at ford B.
Yan.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2015 11:36:33 GMT
Looking at Yan's map, I can't see Custer going as far east through that cut-up country as JSIT implies.
Also, I think Mac is right when he says that Custer wanted to be seen. If he still thought the village was running (and he had no reason not to apart from Boston maybe telling him), a quick demonstration at Ford B and then leaving Company L like a beacon on the hill says "soldier's are here, refugees keep going north". Unfortunately they also served as magnets for angry warriors.
Cheers,
conrad
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