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Post by herosrest on Feb 9, 2024 10:51:59 GMT
I bumbled into the topic of a claimed M8 Greyhound killing a King Tiger during the Ardennes defence and counter attacks in 1944. Study and investigation of the action has been inconclusive to date. This morning I ran into some images and wonder if the damage to the rear of this Assault Tiger could be from 37mm AP rounds at point blank? What do you think? Research concentrated on Tiger tanks and there were only King Tigers deployed into the St. Vith fighting. JagdTiger is a tiger, right? Knocked out SturmTiger the three overlapped hits grouping, suggests a point blank engagement. I suspect that the image is of the 'tank' which the Greyhound knocked out. Unit action reports have proved to be inconclusive as to which unit, if any, made the kill. Looks like this might be an incontrovertible resolution. Topic search
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Post by herosrest on Feb 9, 2024 11:14:38 GMT
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Post by miker on Feb 9, 2024 17:48:00 GMT
As we say in the turret when one is unsure of exactly where the fall of shot hit, "doubtful" (left, right, over, short) or more likely "lost". The holes look a bit large in the one picture for a 37mm round.
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Post by herosrest on Feb 9, 2024 20:07:57 GMT
Thank you. I thought the same but what is known of the St. Vith action had the Greyhound inside 50 yards and that three round group is remarkable even if only six feet out. I'm going to ferret around with this a bit more because it keeps popping up in stuff I search. If that assault gun was the 'Tiger', then I imagine it was moved out to rear areas PDQ since there were only a handful in the field and that may have been first contact and it was assessed to death by experts. How M10 Booker Will Be Used was an entertaining read which I bumped into today. Regards.
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Post by yanmacca on Feb 9, 2024 20:58:58 GMT
Well, the US Army said it did happen, as you said the said that no Tigers IIs where in the area (sSS PzAbt 501 was the closest), Tiger Is never played a significant role in the Ardennes, Tiger IIs did. The story goes deeper when you hear that the crew of the M8 didn’t claim the kill, it was a Major Boyer 38th Inf who witnessed the engagement.
Having said that, the 37mm M6 was one of the better 37s used in WW2 and there are reports of M3 light tanks knocking out a Tiger I in Tunisia. Both the PzStuMrKp 1000 and 1001 served in the Ardennes, they only had around seven Sturmtigers between them, not sure if they took action in St Vith.
Ian
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Post by miker on Feb 9, 2024 21:08:07 GMT
I have to point out the photo showing the 'possible' holes from 3 rounds of 37mm ammo includes a 4th hole. As to the M10, I think it is good that we have started producing it, but production seems awfully slow. Hopefully nothing will happen till all our toys are produced.
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Post by quincannon on Feb 10, 2024 21:43:36 GMT
Concur with Mike. Holes look too big to be from a 37mm gun on an M8
Concur with Ian. No Tigers in the Ardennes. Plenty of Tiger II (King Tigers). Keep in mind though, every GI in Europe thought that every tank they encountered was a Tiger. That was mostly from misidentification of Panzer IV's with shutzen, which from a distance looks an awful lot like a Tiger's boxy appearance.
Major Don Boyer of the 38th Armored Infantry Battalion, 7th Armored Division, not to be confused with the 38th Infantry Regiment which was also in the Ardennes up north near the Twin Villages, later commanded the 11th (Blackhorse) Armored Cavalry Regiment and brought it back from Germany to Fort Meade, Maryland in the mid 1960's. I met him at a reception the regiment held, at Meade, shortly after their arrival.
I generally have no use at all for light tanks, but I must say I am warming to the M10. Beats the crap out of the Stryker with a big gun, which has already been dropped from the inventory. It's snowing for the third day in a row. Heavy fog with viz down to 50 meters or so. Both of the tobacconists I frequent are out of my blend, and it will be a minimum of a week before they restock. My sinuses are driving me bat shit crazy. The opera today was musical defecation, and all of the mysteries on PBS tonight are repeats. POOP. So the Booker is the bright spot in my life today. Did I mention I am out of Triscuits, and I sure as hell ain't going out in the snow to buy a box.
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Post by miker on Feb 11, 2024 0:34:42 GMT
I looked at that picture again and noted the size of the guys hand next to the holes. My hand is about 90mm wide from the base of my index finger to the base of my little finger. I opine, it was hit with a 75/76 from the rear. A 90mm from a M10/M36 would have penetrated nicely and stuff would be blown all up. I've seen really funny shaped holes in armor on tanks when we got to fire at hulks. Never at a German tank, but we shot at a lot of M47s and M114s. M114s just disintegrated if they got hit with service HEAT. TPDS not so much. Just went right through.
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Post by quincannon on Feb 11, 2024 1:38:58 GMT
M10 TD had a 76mm as did the M18 Hellcat. Only the M36 had a 90mm. We knew about the 88mm AT/AA version as early as 1939. Maybe before. We knew about the Tiger with an 88mm at least by mid 1942 when they were first coming on line. Then some bone head though we should arm our main battle tank with a 75mm low velocity gun. I wonder how may people that decision got killed?
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Post by miker on Feb 11, 2024 3:34:17 GMT
Damn. Ever since high school I thought they both had 90s. Crap.
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Post by herosrest on Feb 11, 2024 4:26:39 GMT
M10 TD had a 76mm as did the M18 Hellcat. Only the M36 had a 90mm. We knew about the 88mm AT/AA version as early as 1939. Maybe before. We knew about the Tiger with an 88mm at least by mid 1942 when they were first coming on line. Then some bone head though we should arm our main battle tank with a 75mm low velocity gun. I wonder how may people that decision got killed? Hi QC. I'd guess...... it killed an awful lot of Germans. Sorry to read that your logistics are fubar. I'll guess that you also ran out of grit. 😀 I think that had Tiger II's been produced in numbers equal to M4's then the outcome would have been the same. Still, what do I know.
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Post by herosrest on Feb 11, 2024 4:50:36 GMT
The three hits versus four is interesting but maybe the first hit wasn't seen by the gunner or commander. It is difficult to imagine a 1½" 'bullet' doing that degree of damage but fail to see the first strike and close in further to make that tight three round group. That is pretty tidy targeting and suggests incredibly close range.
The Ukraine fighting to regain territory has shown again, the difficulty in breaching prepared, or stubborn defence. As soon as the game is meat grinder - equipment losses go through the roof.
The M10 is an attempt to upgun 'Arnhem' type attacks into the rear and give airborne what is needed - heavy punch.
.50 cal rounds will knock it out.
WAM
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Post by herosrest on Feb 11, 2024 4:58:23 GMT
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Post by herosrest on Feb 11, 2024 12:00:17 GMT
wwiitanks.co.uk/FORM-Tank_Data.php?I=501M8, M6 penetration numbers - 100 yards Penetration(@30°) 61mm Penetration(@ 0°) 71mm So, was there a couple of inches of armour plate on the back end of that German vehicle and was it sloped.... hunting.
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Post by yanmacca on Feb 11, 2024 14:43:08 GMT
Hang on a minute, that photo of the rear of the Sturmtiger, is it the same vehicle we are discussing? or is it just a random shot of a Sturmtiger knocked out during the Ardennes campaign. An M4 Sherman took out this Tiger I in Italy, it was under 50 yards (some reports say 30 yards), but it clearly shows the hole made by the 75mm main gun.
Yes HR, the rear of the Tiger I was sloped and 82mm/8% thick, Here is a graph:
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