Ford B: Prelude to Destruction

[herosrest]

Jul 7, 2023 13:25:59 GMT johnson1941 said:

Miker - the picture with the bones has 'the ford' in the back ground - seems VERY flat, at least out to the western shelf.  Big Camp.


Heres one from an NPS brochure. 

This is the gravel bottom ford which Sheridan crossed in 1877. In the artist's sketch made at the time and published in New York with various annotations which Benteen added to; the crossing is poorly indicated as 'C',I believe. I haven't time to hun up the Sketch but Graham published it in one his works. I can only suggest referring to White Shield and Grinnell's work which indicate clearly where the relevant ford was. Those below Deep Ravine were accessed by stampeded cavalry mounts which then floundered in deep water...(who knows - beaver dams - and were retrieved by the women and kids in the the valley. A number of these animals were grays and numbered as many as eleven.

[herosrest]

QC, '41,

Following the discussion concerning the highest point I had concluded from the participant accounts that despite difficulties with pinpoint accuracy, there had been two trips to the bluffs by Custer. This is cocoa flavoured rather malt whiskey or strong black coffe, but is reasonable given that the scouts seperated in some quite definate fashion long since bedeviled by the acrimony between Curley and White Man Runs Him. The Reno battalion sightings took place at the location indicated to Benteen by Martin. The Crow Three at some point then associated viewing Reno's (very brief) death struggle, with the Hodgson marker and that one is a devil to relate to anything let alone what was really going on because I firmly believe the valley deployment was shorter than the arse wiping attending the frights. That aside, Custer re-visted the bluffs on the dog-leg point jutting out from Weir. This was brief and unfortunately opens the door on Custer descending the bluffs, as Gerry Schultz went to his grave believing. Polf Design - Custer appears 

I tried hard, long time, to inject the Crow's knowledge of events, into Thompson's understanding of events but failed. He did not have access to their knowledge other than commonly printed stuff from Curley, because of course the Crow Three data was suppressed along with Thompson's, once Curtis kicked up his stupid fuss about Custer dallying whilst Reno fried. Cavorting about intermedite fords with tethhered squaws, was and will remain remarkable at the very least and drifts into some of the more more problematic war-crimes issues of civilian deaths; but the problem was, and is, with Thompson is, it's believable because it was doable by Custer.

You choose to believe troops did not occupy and stand at Greasy Grass Hill ala Curtis and I fundamentally disagree that as completely off the wall and far far, more far fetched than companies galloping to the site of the modern day railway bridge or the crossings onto Curley's land below opposite the mouth of Deep Ravine where stampeded horses fled.

I feel that N.A. Miles investigation in 1878, has for too long been ignored and you should read it and make sense of it.

Regards, Good Sir.

[quincannon]

HR: Before you travel further down the Nelson A. Miles rabbit hole, you must attempt to understand that everything Nelson Miles did was primarily for the benefit of Nelson A. Miles, including that so called investigation. Miles would do absolutely nothing that may impede his advancement, including screwing his own mother if he thought that act of incest would get him forward faster. He is the very last man I would trust with anything that resembles the truth, in the same manner that I would not trust King, MacArthur, or Pershing in a room alone with my wife, daughter, granddaughter, female dog, cat, or goat.

Character matters HR, and in a soldier it matters more than his/her ability in combat. It is the basis of caring leadership, being part of something larger than self. It means doing the right thing even if no one is looking. It means doing the right thing even though the right thing comes with severe personal cost. In the end it means whether your soldiers will follow you into the hottest corner of hell willingly, because they trust your character to bring them home again.

We had a fellow once in the U S Army. He was by all accounts a combat leader of exceptional talents, and courage. He won Bemis Heights for us changing the course of our revolution. Underneath it all though he was a man of flawed character. He was petty, aggrieved, and unfortunately married a woman who was just like him. In the end though he betrayed his country, his Army, and the men who served under him. He hung his British contact out to dry, and when he was found out, abandoned his wife to whatever fate awaited her, so he could escape accountability. I will follow Army protocol and not name the no good treasonous son of a bitch in public.
 

Each of the men I listed even though they had on the surface splendid, and sometimes artificially manufactured records, could not be trusted. 

[johnson1941]

Heres a good bit by Flying Hawk on recovering horses on lower fords, Custer on 2nd ridge…with Ricker 1907…

“

Flying Hawk was with the leaders and could see. The Indians had crossed the river above Calhoun Hill before Custer left the second ridge. The soldiers saw the Indians down in the creek leading to the river, and then Custer came down off the second ridge and went up onto Calhoun Hill, leaving a detachment there, and he went right on over to Custer Hill and made a stand there. (It is easy to see why he did this from a military point.)

The Sioux and Cheyennes were all mixed up. Some of the Indians crossed from the place the women fled to and went across at the lower crossing west of Custer Hill, and there they caught a lot of soldiers’ loose horses, and some of the Indians went up into the fight [this would indicate that the loose horses were not at Calhoun Hill as commonly believed].”

Hawk is another whomstates soldiers did not come down ‘the creek’:

“

He says Custer did not try to go down to the river by the creek and that there was no fighting on that creek, as others have said. (And no stones have been set there, and I think he is right).”

Harper Companion


anyway he gives a pretty succint description of the fighting.

[azranger]

Jul 8, 2023 4:12:41 GMT quincannon said:

How did those markers get there? I do not know, but my guess is that they were individuals trying and failing to escape. That is a very plausible reason, given that the area in question is in a relatively narrow defile, and if you are trying to escape it is quite logical to run in the lowest part of the defile where the chances for the best ground to run away would be

So for 1800 yards these soldiers ran in a straight line ?

Now when you give me a plausible reason why Custer should expose at least two companies in that manner, and lead them in front of a piece of high ground that he had no idea if it was occupied by the enemy or not, then I will absorb your answer and evaluate your reasoning. Until then not so much. Plausibility does not include fairy tales. It must contain both fact and sound reasoning.

If you believe Thompson then I expect you are beyond all hope of rationality. He was mentally ill Steve, and none of what he said has any historical merit. His horse wore out. He hid in the tall brush, like any person with common sense would do in that situation and appeared when friendlies came upon him. He did not tell that story while he was in uniform. Watson never told a similar story. The story appeared when the man had debilitating mental issues at an advanced age.

You have no proof that he was mentally ill. When do you think he wrote his notes? Exactly what did he write that indicates mental illness. I would guess that you have not interviewed persons breaking state, local, and non-military federal laws. If you had done some interview and/or interrogation you would understand the nature of persons.

When are you going to stop relying on your friends in the Custer Adoration and Marching Society and start thinking for yourself. You say you were a Marine, and are proud of it. Well any Marine in his third week at San Diego or Parris Island would know better than to do what you say Custer did. Fall back on your training. Listen to what it tells you. Evaluate the situation and terrain. No one purposely does stupid, and what you suggest that Custer did, based upon a map that some ass hole engineer who was not there drew after the fact is just plain stupid.

I don't say it I am a Marine. Served a tour in Vietnam. Marines believe once a Marine always a Marine. You can find it on the Marine Corps site. I never was taught the term retrograde until Army officers explained it here on the boards. Since the bodies to some degree are marked by the markers and there are  artifacts further north it doesn't take much of an investigator to figure out that were alive further north and died somewhere south of furthest north discovered artifacts . 

If you can't be around people with different beliefs you would not make it in a law enforcement job. By the very nature of it we are opposite in thinking with most of the violators we contact. 

Regards

Steve

[johnson1941]

Camp via Hammer Transcripts pdf pg56 Action across Greasy Grass Ridge...is this the "western Corridor"? "The Maquire" line?

Gen. Fred D. Grant April 19, 1910.

Gen Grant in summer of 1878, soon after
the bodies scattered about the field had been disinterred and permanently buried
at the north end of Custer ridge, where the monument now is, found several
empty graves on Greasy Grass hill. As well as he could remember there were
four or five of them scattered about over some distance on this hill, part of them,
at least, being rather on the south slope of the hill, but well up toward the top.

These empty graves had the same general appearance as those scattered all over
Custer Ridge and now located by markers. There being rank grass, fragments
of clothing and other indications that bodies had been temporarily buried where
the dirt had been thrown up. This is the very evidence by which the markers
were placed in 1884 (? get exact date).

The evidence of fighting at various points was so clear at that time that he formed the following theory or conclusion
as to how the fight had progressed:

Custer had come down Medicine Tail coulee and turned to the right, out upon the flat next to the river, as though to cross into
the village. Presumably the first firing from the village side was from the fringe of timber or brush along that side of the stream, while the troops
occupied this flat. This fire may have been so strong as to cause the men to hesitate, and, at all events, they had moved to Greasy Grass Hill, as a more commanding position, only to find it dominated by higher ground to the north,

- 57 -

with Indians probably advancing up the river from that direction also, which
would account for the presence of dead bodies there. Leaving this hill and
passing a slight depression they reached higher ground where the group of
bodies, including those of Sergeants Finley and Finckel, was afterward found.
Here again they saw unoccupied higher ground still to the north, beyond a
slight depression, and they had gone to it, the evidence of dead bodies marking
the trail to where the Calhoun and Crittenden markers now are. It then impressed
him that the men whose bodies lay along this route had probably been killed by
fire from the rear or left flank.

[johnson1941]

HR, QC - More on the highest point along the bluffs in that vicinity...re: Weir HILL

Hare, RCOI

Q) Does this point a little lower down?
A) You can see a part of it from there. I can’t tell anything about this point “2” from the map. There is a point some distance below where Major Reno made his stand from which you can see the upper end of the village. {Camp had also said this with Martin re: Weir Hill}


Herendeen, RCOI

Q...how near was General Custer to his battlefield when Major Reno left the timber with his command?
A) It would be just a guess, depending on how fast he was traveling. He ought to have been beyond Major Reno’s position on the hill, about half a mile. I should not think he was over two miles from the battlefield where he was found  {DeRudio saw Custer wave his hat from here, around this time}
...

Q) If these lines represent General Custer’s trail, about how far would that be on this map?
A) I know that country and from the point we called Weir’s Hill, there is a sort of swale runs down and it is nice traveling to the creek that runs in there.
I was not over General Custer’s trail that season, but I was the next, but it was so obliterated that I don’t know exactly where it was.


Q) What is the character of the country towards “B”?
A) I claim that what is called Weir’s Hill is the highest point on the ridge in that vicinity.

Q) That circular mark is to indicate the position Major Reno took. How far from there can you see the country towards “B”?
A) To that highest point, Weir’s Hill, probably half a mile down.

{its over a mile to Weir Peaks from reno circle}

Attachments:

[quincannon]

I don't know if they ran in a straight line or not and neither do you. The markers are pretty much in a straight line I suspect judging from the overhead photos.

Thompson's doctor and daughter both reported that in his last years he suffered from mental illness. It was probably dementia but I do not actually know what it was. Now what you need to do is think beyond Gerry Schultz. IF Thompson had witnessed what he said he did, why did he not report it at the time. Why didn't Watson say something? Presumably he would have seen the same thing Thompson did?  If Thompson and Watson witnessed all this they would have been prime witnesses at any inquiry involving and aspect of the LBH battle. You can bet your sweet ass they would have testified at the RCOI and Reno himself would have called them, because what is contained in the Thompson story, if true, would get Reno completely off the hook. So I know Gerry Shultz was your friend and was entitled to believe anything he wished to including Thompson, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy. What disappoints me is that you are not using your own skills to think for yourself about the matter.
 
Like I said, you say you are a Marine, and what I am saying is that a Marine recruit in his third week of boot camp would know better than to do what you say Custer did. What I say further is that you should remember your training, remember your combat tour, and any other tactical training you had over the years including your police training and do not be an advocate for someone doing something so stupid that it is off the charts stupid.

I have no problem discussing tactics with anyone, as long as that anyone has sound reasoning why someone would do something so apparently stupid, and can come up with a plausible reason for that stupidity and I have been asking you to come up with one for fifteen years and you have not because you cannot. So let's review the bidding. Custer with only 210 ten soldiers deliberately exposes himself with about half of those soldiers in front of a village containing somewhere between 1500 and 3000 warriors by going to or past Ford B, then to compound the idiocy he rides in front of high ground chock full of those warriors and suffers casualties, and still hopes to get north and attack that village across the river. Now you never said that high ground Greasy Grass Ridge was chock full of warriors when Custer passed, but in reality you did in that were there no warriors there, there would not be any casualties in the corridor, would there. So you have Custer doing stupid by exposing himself, the doing double stupid by riding through low ground with high ground on three sides of him, a made to order ambush position of textbook quality, miraculously escaping then thinking triple stupid he can still cross the river and attack that frigging village by surprise Come on.

You never heard the term retrograde until it was explained to you here. Well that does tell me you know zilch about the combat history of your own Corps. I can name you a dozen times in Marine Corps history where Corps units conducted retrogrades. The Philippines, Guadalcanal, and the Chosin come readily to mind, and there are several more. Probably never heard that Marines surrendered either, Wake, Guam, and the 4th Marines in the Philippines are three excellent examples

[azranger]

Jul 9, 2023 23:54:43 GMT johnson1941 said:

Camp via Hammer Transcripts pdf pg56 Action across Greasy Grass Ridge...is this the "western Corridor"? "The Maquire" line?

Gen. Fred D. Grant April 19, 1910.

Gen Grant in summer of 1878, soon after
the bodies scattered about the field had been disinterred and permanently buried
at the north end of Custer ridge, where the monument now is, found several
empty graves on Greasy Grass hill. As well as he could remember there were
four or five of them scattered about over some distance on this hill, part of them,
at least, being rather on the south slope of the hill, but well up toward the top.

These empty graves had the same general appearance as those scattered all over
Custer Ridge and now located by markers. There being rank grass, fragments
of clothing and other indications that bodies had been temporarily buried where
the dirt had been thrown up. This is the very evidence by which the markers
were placed in 1884 (? get exact date).

The evidence of fighting at various points was so clear at that time that he formed the following theory or conclusion
as to how the fight had progressed:

Custer had come down Medicine Tail coulee and turned to the right, out upon the flat next to the river, as though to cross into
the village. Presumably the first firing from the village side was from the fringe of timber or brush along that side of the stream, while the troops
occupied this flat. This fire may have been so strong as to cause the men to hesitate, and, at all events, they had moved to Greasy Grass Hill, as a more commanding position, only to find it dominated by higher ground to the north,

- 57 -

with Indians probably advancing up the river from that direction also, which
would account for the presence of dead bodies there. Leaving this hill and
passing a slight depression they reached higher ground where the group of
bodies, including those of Sergeants Finley and Finckel, was afterward found.
Here again they saw unoccupied higher ground still to the north, beyond a
slight depression, and they had gone to it, the evidence of dead bodies marking
the trail to where the Calhoun and Crittenden markers now are. It then impressed
him that the men whose bodies lay along this route had probably been killed by
fire from the rear or left flank.

Below is map 4. The lines are not surveyed but they do show the Western Corridor and the Battle Ridge Corridor. If you follow the drawing the Western Corridor turns east and moves into Deep Ravine but it significantly bypasses Deep Gully which that deep portion of Deep Gully. It then shows the return line from Cemetery Ridge going in Cemetery Ravine before crossing over to Deep Ravine. I believe they were attempting to go back they way they came but went to far west in Deep Ravine. There are markers on the ridge between Deep Ravine and the Western corridor. I believe those soldiers died on the way over and are included in that line on map 4. I also believe that there was action on way over in area where Deep Ravine goes into the river. The Sacred Arrows were below there and they guarded by the "suicide boys".  I think a better translation would be similar to the Marine Corps statement of Semper Fi Do or Die.

I believe there are two events in time rather than one continuous event.

Regards

Steve

[quincannon]

You sir are tactically hopeless. You drank much too often the Kool Aid of the Marine Corps, and it has effected your power to reason. One does not purposefully place his soldiers in a position that defies reason and logic. To do what you are suggesting is the poster child for purposefully doing stupid.

[azranger]

Jul 10, 2023 4:31:08 GMT quincannon said:

I don't know if they ran in a straight line or not and neither do you. The markers are pretty much in a straight line I suspect judging from the overhead photos. 

Horses tend to follow themselves and would more likely make that line. We don't have to be 100% sure. More likely than not is sufficient. 

Thompson's doctor and daughter both reported that in his last years he suffered from mental illness. It was probably dementia but I do not actually know what it was. Now what you need to do is think beyond Gerry Schultz. IF Thompson had witnessed what he said he did, why did he not report it at the time. Why didn't Watson say something? Presumably he would have seen the same thing Thompson did?  If Thompson and Watson witnessed all this they would have been prime witnesses at any inquiry involving and aspect of the LBH battle. You can bet your sweet ass they would have testified at the RCOI and Reno himself would have called them, because what is contained in the Thompson story, if true, would get Reno completely off the hook. So I know Gerry Shultz was your friend and was entitled to believe anything he wished to including Thompson, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy. What disappoints me is that you are not using your own skills to think for yourself about the matter.

I know you're reaching when you have to bring in the Easter Bunny. So when looking at accounts, you need to see which ones support each other. Thompson states he sees fighting on the east side of the river near Ford B. Curley states soldiers turned down MTC toward Ford B. Martin states he was with the soldiers that turned down MTC. It included Custer and HQ since Martin didn't write the note. The Sioux have drawn chasing the gray horses across the Western Corridor.  What do you offer to suggest it didn't happen?
 
Like I said, you say you are a Marine, and what I am saying is that a Marine recruit in his third week of boot camp would know better than to do what you say Custer did. What I say further is that you should remember your training, remember your combat tour, and any other tactical training you had over the years including your police training and do not be an advocate for someone doing something so stupid that it is off the charts stupid.

No my DD214 says I am a Marine. As far as stupid, have five companies of U.S. cavalry destroyed to the last man is not evidence of genius is it?

I have no problem discussing tactics with anyone, as long as that anyone has sound reasoning why someone would do something so apparently stupid, and can come up with a plausible reason for that stupidity and I have been asking you to come up with one for fifteen years and you have not because you cannot. So let's review the bidding. Custer with only 210 ten soldiers deliberately exposes himself with about half of those soldiers in front of a village containing somewhere between 1500 and 3000 warriors by going to or past Ford B, then to compound the idiocy he rides in front of high ground chock full of those warriors and suffers casualties, and still hopes to get north and attack that village across the river. Now you never said that high ground Greasy Grass Ridge was chock full of warriors when Custer passed, but in reality you did in that were there no warriors there, there would not be any casualties in the corridor, would there. So you have Custer doing stupid by exposing himself, the doing double stupid by riding through low ground with high ground on three sides of him, a made to order ambush position of textbook quality, miraculously escaping then thinking triple stupid he can still cross the river and attack that frigging village by surprise Come on.

You have left out one important thing they rode horses. Horses have a mind and can quit whenever they feel like it. As Thompson moved north his horse quit, and he lost that mode of transportation. 

You never heard the term retrograde until it was explained to you here. Well that does tell me you know zilch about the combat history of your own Corps. I can name you a dozen times in Marine Corps history where Corps units conducted retrogrades. The Philippines, Guadalcanal, and the Chosin come readily to mind, and there are several more. Probably never heard that Marines surrendered either, Wake, Guam, and the 4th Marines in the Philippines are three excellent examples.

All your data does not change one iota what I learned in boot camp. I get that you are interested in all the history and equipment. My involvement was simply because a friend of mine, Don Sorensen, was killed, and my high school class had a call to action. All branches of the service were enlisted. I saw an Army ad on TV that said, "Be all you can be," so I entered the Marine Corps. We went to Vietnam for the right reason. It had nothing to do with politics. I used my Veterans benefits to attend the University of Arizona and received a degree in Wildlife Biology. That you can name a dozen times regarding history is good for you. I can testify in court and have as an expert witness. Looking at what occurred on the ground at the LBH is like looking at a contaminated crime scene. I taught an AZPOST course on interview and interrogation.  What someone dies from in later years has very little to do with what they did when they were younger. 

I am only focused on what I can find out about this battle. I applaud your knowledge of history and military experience. Some of what Thompson writes about rings true. He talks about running away from five Indians and finally stops and points an empty carbine at them. You can sense him becoming a soldier and the fear that caused him to run. In my case, we were actively  engaged in war as a country. We concentrated on increasing our combat knowledge and developing skillsets such as shooting and repetition to improve our ability to respond under stress. I was never looking for a military career; I was doing what I thought I needed to do as a citizen.

Regards

Steve

[azranger]

Jul 10, 2023 15:29:36 GMT quincannon said:

You sir are tactically hopeless. You drank much too often the Kool Aid of the Marine Corps, and it has effected your power to reason. One does not purposefully place his soldiers in a position that defies reason and logic. To do what you are suggesting is the poster child for purposefully doing stupid.

You mean they could all end up dead?

[azranger]

Chuck

Peter Thompson was interviewed by Camp in 1909. He died in 1928 at the age of 73. So he was 54 when Camp Interviewed him at the battlefield. I don't know about you but I was still fit and thin at the age of 54.

The article was published from his hand written diary. Gerry had a copy.

My father died from complications with dementia at the age of 92 that did not change what he did with life in his younger years. He too was soldier and served in the Philippines during WWII. My family is full of patriots who serve in their younger years. There is also a Marine Corp Major and a Navy Sub Commander. Both were the exceptions with military careers.

Regards

Steve

[quincannon]

I am not in any way impugning your motivation for becoming a Marine. That is not, nor has it ever been relevant to this discussion. What I am saying is simply this. No one "purposefully does stupid. In other words no one does stupid things knowing in advance they are stupid. What they do may in the end turn out to be stupid, but that is another story. Custer moving the way he did, onto the bluffs without proper reconnaissance turned out to be stupid, but he thought it a perfectly logical and reasoned thing to do at the time. I fully agree with anyone who says he was trying to cross over at Ford B and get behind what he thought at the time to be a relatively small tribal circle. I would have thought and acted the same way, but only if my prior reconnaissance had told me that what I thought to be the case was the reality on the ground. Prior to any attempt to go to Ford B, Custer received information, by his own observation, or the observation of others that the village was larger than he thought, and that it extended past Ford B.

Based upon that knowledge Ford B was not a viable crossing place, so any attempt at approaching that place was a fruitless and unnecessary effort, so why in heavens name would Custer purposefully do stupid? The only viable answer is that he would not. So, if he did not go to Ford B, then there would be no possible reason to travel the western corridor.

So then let's look at it from another perspective. Custer does not know that Ford B is not viable as a crossing point and is unaware of the size of the village and that it extends beyond the ford. That is the basis for Fred Wagner's theories. So let us follow Wagner for a wee bit. Fred said they went to the ford were repulsed and fell back to the higher ridges, following the pathway of least resistance. Although I do not agree with Fred's theory, that would be exactly the way to do it in that circumstance, follow the path of least resistance, fall back on your supports and attempt to momentarily break contact. That is by the book brother and Custer did it every time he got himself into trouble. Read the record, from Gettysburg on. What he never did is do anything similar to what you propose in utilizing this western corridor nonsense.

You always get your shorts in a twist when I mention the Marine Corps. I do it on purpose to set you off on a tangent and reveal to all who read you that you do not have a thorough grounding in or understanding of small unit tactics, or, and this is more important, the people who employ those tactics. How they think, and their character. No, tacticians do not always call the shots right. Mike, Colt, and I are living proof of that. We, all three, have made our share of tactical errors, me most of all. What none of us ever did though is deliberately set out to do the wrong thing, even though it turned out to be wrong in the end. Fred Wagner shared a story with me many years ago about the time when he was with 3rd Infantry Division in Germany. He too made tactical errors, and the one he shared with me was a whopper, but it was not a deliberate error. It was an error brought on by circumstance.

To answer your question - Yes they could all end up dead. That is not what combat leaders do, lead them into places deliberately where they could all end up dead.

Logic alone should tell you that the best part of the Thompson story was fabrication. I don't blame him. His state of mind at the time he related it was impaired. The man's horse gave out. Watson's horse gave out. The dismounted and hid until linking up with a friendly force. Thompson and Watson saw nothing. It is a fairy tale. So is the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy.

[johnson1941]

also believe that there was action on way over in area where Deep Ravine goes into the river. The Sacred Arrows were below there and they guarded by the "suicide boys". I think a better translation would be similar to the Marine Corps statement of Semper Fi Do or Die.

Check this Buell map - lots of Xs at the base of the ravine "in area where Deep Ravine goes into the river'.

Attachments: