Ford B: Prelude to Destruction

[miker]

The link shows a CSA 2 dollar bill...

[quincannon]

Maybe HR is giving you a subliminal message Mike.

[azranger]

Martin states he was within 600 yards of Medicine Tail Ford when he was sent back. He showed the location to Benteen. That puts them just outside of rifle fire for most weapon systems that the Indians had available. The purpose was to slow Indians from crossing at Ford B. C, I, L was to move straight across  MTC and continue north.  Custer would then parallel the CIL movement in the western corridor. That corridor is defined by the bodies that Maguire used to make Map Four. It is also where the current markers are located. It is 1,800 yards in length, and markers are in line. 

If CIL had not encountered contact with all the Indians east of the LBH, they could have moved quickly to the north. Instead, they fired hundreds of rounds in the area between MTC and Deep Coulee. 

It makes more sense that Custer never intended to cross at Ford B. It was an opposed crossing with a bank to climb to egress. Immediately you would be in the  timber and no place to form up. Leaving the timber to form up places you in the Big Village infrastructure. This was visible before moving down Middle Coulee to Medicine Tail Coulee. 

As far as the Butler marker, it is not in the proper location. The location  was in the drainage to the north. Cpl. Foley's marker location was discovered by my friend Chip Watts. There was a rock piled that was used to determine the location of the marker.

Regards

Steve

[miker]

Jul 6, 2023 15:55:21 GMT quincannon said:

Maybe HR is giving you a subliminal message Mike.

I purposely wear an aluminum foil hat when I read his posts.

[azranger]

Riding on a march only hurts your butt but it doesn't increase you horsemanship skills. A horse could stay in its position even without a rider in some cases.  A private wrote that he had never ridden as fast as he did at the battle. As a trainer we know that speed can cause tunnel vision.  That is described by the Indians as a buffalo hunt. That is a failure to train in my opinion. Notice that Captain French in the rear could shoot and make hits. That private stated he had never fired his revolver while mounted. A failure to train. The horse also would need the same training. 

There is a book out about riding with and independent seat (American Military Horsemanship if I recall correctly) which is what the Indians did and the cavalry later on trained to do. I would guess when they stopped and crossed the river an saber would be useful weapon. Sgt Ryan stated these particular soldiers were not trained in the saber. He even suggested they didn't want to train. I don't ever remember any training that was optional. It made it easy to leave the sabers behind since they would more likely hurt each other.

Regards

Steve

[quincannon]

Did Martini say that, or did Benteen say Martini said that? I seem to recall it was the latter, but I can't put my finger on where at the present moment. It does make a difference. Martini had a habit of moving closer to the ultimate action as he grew in age and notoriety.

You still have not given me any reason why Custer would give the middle finger to the hostiles, by parading past Ford B.

For the umpteenth time McGuire, nor the fellow who actually drew the map was there during the battle, and seeing those bodies in what you refer to as the western corridor is still rank, unsupported, speculation as to the traversing of that area, the same way it was a dozen years ago when you first posted it. Speculation on your part does not mean it has to be accepted as fact on my part, considering that there are a dozen or more reasons why those bodies could be there, in addition to some silly bastard taking two companies of cavalry directly in front of a prime ambush position, after showing his tactical ass at Ford B. Tactics matter. Techniques matter. Going that way defies both.

[johnson1941]

RCOI

Q. How far was the point you left Gen Custer from the place where Maj Reno made his stand?
A I don't know. I could not judge. It was 5 or 600 yards or probably 3/4 mile.


With Camp 1908

"Martin says Custer's trail passed along where Reno retreated to. Then Custer halted command on the high ridge about 10 minutes, and officers looked at village through glasses.
...
Then command "Attention" "Fours right" "Column right" "March" was given and command went forward down off the hill and then "Column left" and whole command passed down ravine toward dry creek. Martin thinks he continued about 1/2 mile farther when Cooke halted and wrote message to Benteen and gave to Martin"

With Camp, 1910

"CUSTER FIRST halted on Weir's hill and took a look at village. Here he turned column to the right and went down coulee to Dry Creek and turned to left and followed Dry Creek straight for village. About half way down to Little Bighorn we came into full view of the village and here he halted the command and Cooke wrote out the message to Benteen, and I started back with it on the trails. I did not follow Dry Creek all way back to coulee running north and south but cut across the high ground."

1922 
" This was about a mile down the river from where we went up on the hill, and we had been going at a trot and gallop all the way."


With Camp 1908 or 1910

"John Martin. I showed (on June 27) Benteen where I left with note from
Custer and Benteen estimated the distance to be 600 yards to Ford B."


FWIW Camp puts Martin being sent back over a mile from the river...6184', and 3431' from the Cedar Coulee bend. Apparently based on going down MTC and seeing village.

On the blue map, he isn't even out of Cedar yet.

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[quincannon]

Oh my. Someone has done their homework. Good on you old son.

[miker]

For those who have been there:

Is this Ford A or Ford B or somewhere else?  I think it is Ford A since the area appears flat and I think the banks were higher at B.   Its captioned "Ford where Custer attacked."  To me that means B, but it just don't look right... 

For no good reason I think the photo is taken from the "Friendly" side.  That said, does someone have a known photo of Ford B.


Ford A or B

[quincannon]

I have seen the photo before, marked the same way, and my read is that it could be A B or D. It shows a river and two banks, and is otherwise unidentifiable, at least to me.

[johnson1941]

Morrow photo…heres another…c1879…i just figured it was B based on the 1st one.

“Capt. Sanderson's camp at the ford, while gathering the bones and building the monument. Custer's battlefield in Montana.; not long after the 1876 Battle of the Little Bighorn.“

maybe we can confirm where Sandersons camp was?

Attachments:

[johnson1941]

Custer Battle, Little Big Horn at mouth of Big Horn, Medicine Tail Creek (look northeast to Custer's position) where Indians crossed the river to attack Custer, Crow scouts had come down to this point to inspect Indian camp, one of hills where Custer's men fought can be seen between the trees."
Denver Public Library Special Collections

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[johnson1941]

English: No. 185 34  Gen'l Custer's last stand, looking in the direction of ford and Indian village. Photograph shows pile of bones found at battle site.

SJ Morrow Sterograph collection

And yours again…
”No. 44 “The ford, where Custer attempted to cross to attack the Indian village.” (Little Bighorn River)”

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[quincannon]

41: If your mission was to gather the bones and build a monument where would you camp? I know where I would, and it would not be at Ford B. Probably would not be right at D either. Probably somewhere near the river, perhaps the base of Cemetery Ridge right around where Kellogg was killed (not where the marker to him is now though).

Please do find Sanderson's camp location if you can. I would love to know that location

[mac]

Jul 6, 2023 23:29:14 GMT johnson1941 said:

With Camp 1908

"Martin says Custer's trail passed along where Reno retreated to. Then Custer halted command on the high ridge about 10 minutes, and officers looked at village through glasses.
...
Then command "Attention" "Fours right" "Column right" "March" was given and command went forward down off the hill and then "Column left" and whole command passed down ravine toward dry creek. Martin thinks he continued about 1/2 mile farther when Cooke halted and wrote message to Benteen and gave to Martin"

Using the McElfresh Map and starting from where it notes "Last sight of Custer Command" (closer to the village than 3411). For those without McElfresh it is on the edge of the bluff about 400 yds South of Wier Point and about half a mile North of Dr Dewolt marker. If you follow the above instructions you start to move down Cedar Coulee. This is why I think Cedar is the most likely path for Custer.

Half a mile on from there Martin and Cooke are both still in Cedar when the order is penned by Cooke. This seems appropriate "think time" for Custer to decide his course of action.

This all seems more likely to me than Martin's later embellishments about his proximity to the action.

Cheers