Ford B: Prelude to Destruction

[mac]

Jul 6, 2023 17:01:44 GMT azranger said:

Martin states he was within 600 yards of Medicine Tail Ford when he was sent back. He showed the location to Benteen. That puts them just outside of rifle fire for most weapon systems that the Indians had available. The purpose was to slow Indians from crossing at Ford B. C, I, L was to move straight across  MTC and continue north.  Custer would then parallel the CIL movement in the western corridor. That corridor is defined by the bodies that Maguire used to make Map Four. It is also where the current markers are located. It is 1,800 yards in length, and markers are in line. 

If CIL had not encountered contact with all the Indians east of the LBH, they could have moved quickly to the north. Instead, they fired hundreds of rounds in the area between MTC and Deep Coulee. 

It makes more sense that Custer never intended to cross at Ford B. It was an opposed crossing with a bank to climb to egress. Immediately you would be in the  timber and no place to form up. Leaving the timber to form up places you in the Big Village infrastructure. This was visible before moving down Middle Coulee to Medicine Tail Coulee. 

As far as the Butler marker, it is not in the proper location. The location  was in the drainage to the north. Cpl. Foley's marker location was discovered by my friend Chip Watts. There was a rock piled that was used to determine the location of the marker.

Regards

Steve

My message above shows my problems with Martini AZ.

I think probably Company E move far enough down MTC towards the village to provide flank security while the rest crossed MTC. They then moved back up the coulee and followed the rest of the command towards the North. JSIT was told that, at the point Wolf Tooth saw them, Company E were the rear guard going North.

To follow the "Maguire line" they would have to move not only close to Ford B, but then through  between F/F Ridge and GG Ridge, or some version of that. This seems dangerous and pointless exposure, at that time, to me.

Cheers

[quincannon]

DANGEROUS and POINTLESS. Both in equal measure

[quincannon]

That message was sent before anyone entered any Coulee be it Cedar or the others, I'd wager.

Martini was eating to much pasta, and you know what that does, it makes you full of something that rhymes with it.

This is my opinion, and only that. Custer halts his battalion in the vicinity of Weir before entering one of the coulees (probably Cedar but at least one other is possible), sends Martini back. Custer may have gone to the edge of the bluff or sent someone for a look see during the halt. Based upon whomever looked seeing that the fight was underway in the valley, Custer resolved to enter the valley at Ford B. Indians were around Custer's front but were not standing to fight him until Custer resumed his march. About the time Custer got into Medicine Tail Coulee the Indians started to make a stand, and that stand by Wolf Tooth's band was the reason Custer decided to deal with them on the eastern ridges, which in turn made an assault at Ford B a non-starter. It would be imprudence to the maximum extent to attack at B with the possibility of a hundred or two hundred Indians nipping at your hindparts. Keep in mind Custer had no idea how many warriors Wolf Tooth had with him or where all of them were. All he could do is count what he could see. Indians are like cats. They are only seen when they want to be seen. In that country Custer could have a thousand hostiles to his front, some on his very doorstep and not know of their presence.

OK, why do I think this. Martini said the Indians were running. I believe him. Had he been where Steve thinks he was, he would have known that they were not running. How do I conclude this? The artifact field on those eastern ridges, the sheer amount of them, says there was a considerable firefight there over a period of 20 to 30 minutes. A firefight and running are two mutually exclusive events. Giovani Martini was a young soldier, with communications difficulties, who was scared out of his wits. What he said to Benteen was true on the afternoon of 25 June. Everything else he said following that date must be taken with a grain of salt. He was a young man in a very unique position, and in his later years he took advantage of that fact. Maybe that was on purpose, maybe all of the events of the day were jumbled in his mind. Look at everything the man said, not what I say. Many of them are mutually exclusive.


 

[miker]

Well. I now think it is Ford A. Its too flat to be B or D. But what do I know?

One of the other photo's is just one of those you put into a special frame to see in 3D.  The others don't even look like they are close to water. 

[johnson1941]

Using the McElfresh Map and starting from where it notes "Last sight of Custer Command" (closer to the village than 3411). For those without McElfresh it is on the edge of the bluff about 400 yds South of Wier Point and about half a mile North of Dr Dewolt marker. If you follow the above instructions you start to move down Cedar Coulee. This is why I think Cedar is the most likely path for Custer.

Yay mac! (& QC)

Camp (& so Martin) calls that high point Weir HILL...I have posted a LOT about it recently. DeRudio called it "7", Benteen "G".

I'll have to see I can find McElfresh map to compare. (seems there may be a few hundred feet delta there)

The 1 real primary contrast I have found so far (besides herorest ) is the WMRH re: w/Curtis -has Custer et. al. going over Weir Point (after watching Reno lose for +/- hour). (& of course Gall, Godfrey, later benteen etc are another ridge over)

Camp with martin: "Custer first halted on Weir's hill and took a look at village (from this point he could see only about 1/3 of it...Hunk and Blackfoot villages...W.M. C.) Here he turned column to the right and went down {South} coulee to Dry Creek and turned to left and followed Dry Creek straight for village."
...

Martin (heading back)
"Met Boston Custer half way between medium coulee and Weir Hill. Boston asked me where Custer was and if he had been attacked…”"


And Martin certainly seems to suffer from scope-creep! He gets closer to the river in every telling!

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[johnson1941]

Miker - the picture with the bones has 'the ford' in the back ground - seems VERY flat, at least out to the western shelf.  Big Camp.


Heres one from an NPS brochure. 

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[quincannon]

Couple of points here.

Camp's down and south are not the same I think. Camp's down was down in elevation not in direction.

When Camp wrote, he had no idea of the skirmishing on the eastern ridge line. I believe Camp had gone to his reward when those artifacts were first discovered. Presumably Martini did not know either because one presumes he would have told Camp of the event. That is another reason for Martini leaving earlier than many think he did. He had no knowledge of what transpired after he left.

McElfresh has Custer or someone being observed on Weir Point, somewhere in the vicinity of Bench Mark 3413.

41: Your photo immediately above is definitely identifiable as Ford B. Ford B is flat ground but a relatively small patch between two pieces of high ground to both north and south. That photo appears as if it is taken from the east side of the river and those Indians appear to be moving in a southwesterly direction, and were I to guess even further I would say they are quite near the 3100 Contour line marked on Mike's enlarged map.

[johnson1941]

QC

Camps's 'down' was Custer moving - 'directly north' - down the coulee that Camp at that time called {South} coulee...he doesnt name the coulee until later in the 'conversation' when he asks Martin a question about cutting across. I hate changing quotes, to make sure I'm not changing original intent with opinion. But it is confirmed what coulee he meant (South, or South Branch then, in later descriptions it is easy to identfy as Cedar), so I added the { }. (he also identifies a coulee off Cedar, with cedars in it that runs east-west - he locates this as near Vincent Charles kill location)

“Inq. John Martin. Did Custer follow the bottom South Coulee all the way and make turn into Medicine Tail…” Yep.



"Bench mark XXXX" - do you know if that/those is/are an actual USGS disc benchmark thingie, or just a confirmed elevation on the map? Im trying to nail down Camp's "stations" which seem to be BM or triangulation stations.  Thanks!



As for McElfresh...

Not Weir Point, but maybe not exactly Weir Hill either.

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[quincannon]

That is a surveyed Bench Mark on the USGS Map. The map I use is the 1967 USGS that Mike had blown up and added Universal Grid Lines to, so two old soldiers could use old map reading skills in this GPS World and communicate locations to one another.

A young man at church has my McElfresh at the moment so I did not have it at hand, but the location on that portion that you posted is close enough for this discussion. Fred Wagner went to his grave believing that BM 3411 (on the USGS Map) was the location where Custer or someone was seen. I thought so for a long time until Mike sent me a copy of the map he had made. That convinced me that it was the Weir Area best identified by the surveyed bench mark that was the true location in concert with what McElfresh has marked it. Do I think 3413 was the actual spot? No I don't, but it was a spot that anyone having the USGS map could easily relate to. What is really a shame is that the map has not been updated since 1967. You will also note on the 1967 edition that I-90 is not a four lane as it is now through the battlefield area and does not become one until you get to the Ford D area.

[johnson1941]

Look at 1891 USGS - what I 100% think Camp calls Weir Hill, right against the bluffs & where the river is right against bluffs (De Rudio, Martin) has an elevation ring of 3500', as does SSR - 3500' BM...this is of course before the road work.

Camp measured these in 1910x? as being just +/-50-60ft lower then Weir Peaks. (Hodgson's maker/Reno Hill - which features predominately in the scouts stories around this point & when they were left behind by Custer, is pretty high too). 


As numerous witnesses call it - 'the highest point just below the De Wolf marker'.

This of course would make the saddle between Weir Hill and SSR (around 3411) 'the ridge' they crossed, before making the right into Cedar/South Coulee.

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[quincannon]

Using what you posted above I can use the map I have and make out the 32, 33, and 3400 contour markings and they seem relatively consistent between the two maps. The road appears to have adjusted the height along those bluffs quite a bit though.

Do you have any insight as to why they use the DeWolf marker as a point of reference? Does not seem pertinent to me.

[johnson1941]

Yes - from Google earth it looks like the 'high pinncacle' of Weir Hill at the bluffs is really gone. Someone posted a contemporary picture looking at SSR and what would be the hill to the left - Not even close now in elevation. Picture that ridge as havng the same 3500' elevation at either end! (see attached)


Re: De Wolf...

DeRudio, RCOI

A. I did not see any part of the column of General Custer. The only observation I made was while I was in the woods. General Custer, Lieut. Cook and another man I could not recognize came to the highest point of the bluff and waved their hats and made motions like they were cheering and pretty soon disappeared. I judge by that that probably his column was behind the bluff."


Q. Where was that?
A. It was on  the highest point on the right bank of the creek just below where Dr. De Wolf was killed.

Q. Did you see the place generally known as the point where Capt Weir went to?
A. Yes Sir I saw it .

Q. Was General Custer on that point .
A . No, on one nearer the river and the highest point on that side. Where I saw General Custer the river comes right under the bluff comes in very narrow there hardly wide enough for a horse to stand on in my opinion...



Also, Camp places Weir Hill '1700' from where Reno retreated up.' He also uses the DeWolf marker as a bearing compare to Weir Hill.

Bearings July 28.
N End of Benteen's line to sharpshooters hill N 45 W.
To Edgerly Peak N 58 W.
To Weir's hill N 68 W.
To DeWolf marker N 64 W

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[azranger]

Jul 6, 2023 18:34:23 GMT quincannon said:

Did Martini say that, or did Benteen say Martini said that? I seem to recall it was the latter, but I can't put my finger on where at the present moment. It does make a difference. Martini had a habit of moving closer to the ultimate action as he grew in age and notoriety.

You still have not given me any reason why Custer would give the middle finger to the hostiles, by parading past Ford B.

For the umpteenth time McGuire, nor the fellow who actually drew the map was there during the battle, and seeing those bodies in what you refer to as the western corridor is still rank, unsupported, speculation as to the traversing of that area, the same way it was a dozen years ago when you first posted it. Speculation on your part does not mean it has to be accepted as fact on my part, considering that there are a dozen or more reasons why those bodies could be there, in addition to some silly bastard taking two companies of cavalry directly in front of a prime ambush position, after showing his tactical ass at Ford B. Tactics matter. Techniques matter. Going that way defies both.

Got to love you Chuck. Can you be less candid. I suggest Custer stopped in MTC to block or slow access to crossing the river at MTC or Deep Coulee. He would only need to do if for a short time in order for CIL gain an advantage moving north. Custer would know that as soon as CIL tops out from crossing MTC they are visible to the Big Village and they could cross at Ford B or Deep Coulee unopposed if Custer didn't attempt to slow them. That would allow the Indians free access to the left flank and rear of CIL. Unfortunately other Indians to the east confronted CIL and slowed their progress north. Custer moved north along the western corridor with the Sioux chasing him.

I believe Thompson witnessed this from his location. He thought Custer was driven off. I think Custer did what he planned and moved north.

I would like to hear a more plausible theory on how you get those markers in a line for 1,800 yards. The markers are in a line but not all visible to each other. So it throws out any movement on line for the 1800 yards moving toward the river as some have suggested in my opinion. It seems more plausible that the movement was in column moving toward Deep Ravine in my opinion. It sucks to have a slow horse and the markers show a progression of slow horses shot at the rear as the moved.  

There is a Sioux drawing showing them chasing the grey horses across the Western Corridor which tends to support my theory.

Regards

Steve

[azranger]

Jul 7, 2023 5:46:51 GMT mac said:

Jul 6, 2023 17:01:44 GMT azranger said:

Martin states he was within 600 yards of Medicine Tail Ford when he was sent back. He showed the location to Benteen. That puts them just outside of rifle fire for most weapon systems that the Indians had available. The purpose was to slow Indians from crossing at Ford B. C, I, L was to move straight across  MTC and continue north.  Custer would then parallel the CIL movement in the western corridor. That corridor is defined by the bodies that Maguire used to make Map Four. It is also where the current markers are located. It is 1,800 yards in length, and markers are in line. 

If CIL had not encountered contact with all the Indians east of the LBH, they could have moved quickly to the north. Instead, they fired hundreds of rounds in the area between MTC and Deep Coulee. 

It makes more sense that Custer never intended to cross at Ford B. It was an opposed crossing with a bank to climb to egress. Immediately you would be in the  timber and no place to form up. Leaving the timber to form up places you in the Big Village infrastructure. This was visible before moving down Middle Coulee to Medicine Tail Coulee. 

As far as the Butler marker, it is not in the proper location. The location  was in the drainage to the north. Cpl. Foley's marker location was discovered by my friend Chip Watts. There was a rock piled that was used to determine the location of the marker.

Regards

Steve

My message above shows my problems with Martini AZ.

I think probably Company E move far enough down MTC towards the village to provide flank security while the rest crossed MTC. They then moved back up the coulee and followed the rest of the command towards the North. JSIT was told that, at the point Wolf Tooth saw them, Company E were the rear guard going North.

To follow the "Maguire line" they would have to move not only close to Ford B, but then through  between F/F Ridge and GG Ridge, or some version of that. This seems dangerous and pointless exposure, at that time, to me.

Cheers

Not sure what you mean but there is a travel corridor from Deep Coulee that goes the same direction that the markers are located. The Indians from the Big Village had not crossed the river at the time Custer moved north up the Western Corridor. The Sioux crossed the river behind Custer and followed him all across the Western Corridor. They only show the gray horses but it is in that corridor. Actually that route was safer than going across MTC through Luce and across Nye-Cartwright and down into Deep Coulee. There were lots of ambush places. The running W formation of artifacts is a good example. Hundreds of rounds fired and the Indians had terrain features that prevented the soldiers from going after them. The ledge is was formed that W. Once the moved on to NC they could send details both east and west to flank the Indian positions and the artifacts support that is what they did. Once they cross Deep Coulee then Wolf Tooth enters the confrontations. Since they slowed Indians crossing after Custer left MTC could swarm in from the left flank and rear. This U shape contacts leaves the front open and that opening leads to the Cheyenne's.

There is a saying that  the Sioux got the glory and the Crows got the land. The Cheyenne have a different view.

Regards

Steve

[quincannon]

How did those markers get there? I do not know, but my guess is that they were individuals trying and failing to escape. That is a very plausible reason, given that the area in question is in a relatively narrow defile, and if you are trying to escape it is quite logical to run in the lowest part of the defile where the chances for the best ground to run away would be

Now when you give me a plausible reason why Custer should expose at least two companies in that manner, and lead them in front of a piece of high ground that he had no idea if it was occupied by the enemy or not, then I will absorb your answer and evaluate your reasoning. Until then not so much. Plausibility does not include fairy tales. It must contain both fact and sound reasoning.

If you believe Thompson then I expect you are beyond all hope of rationality. He was mentally ill Steve, and none of what he said has any historical merit. His horse wore out. He hid in the tall brush, like any person with common sense would do in that situation and appeared when friendlies came upon him. He did not tell that story while he was in uniform. Watson never told a similar story. The story appeared when the man had debilitating mental issues at an advanced age.

When are you going to stop relying on your friends in the Custer Adoration and Marching Society and start thinking for yourself. You say you were a Marine, and are proud of it. Well any Marine in his third week at San Diego or Parris Island would know better than to do what you say Custer did. Fall back on your training. Listen to what it tells you. Evaluate the situation and terrain. No one purposely does stupid, and what you suggest that Custer did, based upon a map that some ass hole engineer who was not there drew after the fact is just plain stupid.