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Post by yanmacca on Jan 21, 2023 20:07:22 GMT
The beer "San Miguel 1516" has 4.2% alcohol. There are other versions with more graduation. But the "San Miguel 1516" is the one preferred by beer drinkers. Around here people drink more than five beers. The World ranking is led by the Czech Republic with 468 beers per person per year. Second place is Spain with 417. Third is Germany with 411. United Kingdom is far behind with 244. Ian: Another scenario is that he wanted to go back but he had to make sure the way was clear. And how was L going to let Custer know the way was clear? Sending a detachment back from Calhoun Hill? A lot of comings and goings and a lot of wasted time We drink pints, San Miguel is 5%, I know because I still have some left over from Christmas, five pints of 5% is enough unless you want a fuzzy head the next day, I drank seven pints of stella artois (which is also 5%) at a wedding last summer and boy did I know it the next day.
I also want to stress that even though I write up scenarios like the last one I did, I do not agree with them, they are just different ways of looking at the various options, I remember being ridiculed many years ago on the black board for suggesting such scenarios. Mac is asking why L Company left first and others followed, I post up one scenario or theory and Mac if he sees any possible value in it can run with it.
Ian
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Post by quincannon on Jan 21, 2023 21:39:15 GMT
You are engaging in informed speculation Ian. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, and anyone who thinks differently left their brain in the Safeway parking lot next to the returned shopping carts.
When someone answers you either positively (agreeing) or negatively (disagreeing) what they are doing is expressing what they think about your speculation, but that is only their opinion, and not anyone else's viewpoint necessarily.
There is too much in the way of closed minds in the Little Big Horn community, and that is probably why no one has made any progress on the subject in 147 years. Anyone unwilling to listen to and evaluate another's viewpoint on this or any other subject is an idiot, and not a very smart idiot at that. Notice I said listen to and evaluate. That does not mean agree. It means listen and evaluate.
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Jan 21, 2023 23:52:21 GMT
Thanks for the contributions.
Let's start at the beginning. Approaching the battle Custer has a plan. There always is a plan. It involves sending Benteen and his force left and then sending Reno into the valley.
Probably based on Reno's messages Custer decides to change the plan and he takes his force right onto the high ground East of the river. Probably this is to bypass the Indian defense line and attack behind it by crossing at Ford B.
Custer looks into the valley and sees the size of the village and Reno in action, we know this. The timing is such that what he sees in the valley does not make him turn and rush back. Instead he goes on and calls up Benteen.
When Reno leaves the valley Crazy Horse is at the timber and he has learned that Custer is heading towards the end of the village. Crazy Horse leaves the Reno battle and heads back along the valley to the village. Red Hawk tells us that by the time Gall is facing Calhoun Hill; Crazy Horse is there too. He obviously will be faster than Benteen but it is a time marker that is useful.
Benteen arrives at the Reno defense area as Reno is arriving. That is not long after Crazy Horse has left.
IF Reno had not left the valley then Benteen would have kept moving and his forward units may well have been fairly close to Calhoun Hill by the time Calhoun was there. Custer does not know Reno has left the valley.
The point here is what does Custer "see".
Custer has attacked in the valley and realized that he cannot get across the river (as in my previous post). He thinks Benteen is on his way and that extra firepower is what Custer needs. (Needs to escape or renew his attack?? No idea but either is a viable reason) Also at this point Custer certainly has wounded and probably some men who have lost their mount.
Custer sends Company L to Calhoun Hill. Calhoun sends Sgt Butler ahead immediately as a messenger to brief Benteen. Company L move from the valley, South to Calhoun Hill to support Benteen's arrival. Butler doesn't make it.
Company L carefully make their way to Calhoun Hill where there is a nasty surprise waiting for them. Custer sets a defense, as described by Two Moons, and waits.
Calhoun sends a message to Custer saying he needs help. Custer sends Company C to aid Calhoun.
The critical point is when the Indians to the North manage to get rid the mounts of Company F.
Ian may be right and this forced Company I to bail out and try to join Companies L and C to fight their way out to Benteen.
We can never know for sure and I do not presume to know what Custer or Keogh wold be thinking at this point.
Maybe Custer sent Keogh because he felt his defense could still hold the ridges. Both possible.
I propose this is why Custer sent Company L from the valley to Calhoun Hill and why he waited and defended rather than try to break away.
Cheers
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Post by miker on Jan 22, 2023 13:59:13 GMT
Mac
I disagree with some of what you wrote here.
Custer did not have a plan. His fragmented decision making of placing the regiment's companies under his direct control, then splitting them up at the divide, then sending Benteen off to the left (a needed move, that made sure he would be out of the fight), then sending Reno off on a hasty attack against a relatively small group of departing Indians is an indicator of his ad hoc decision making.
The only thing Custer knows is where he is at and that he sent messengers to the trains and to Benteen but that is it.
The messengers both got through because there was a clear space between the Custer and the targets because the village was not yet energized and concentrating on Reno in the LBH valley. Even so, Martini horse was wounded and but for poor marksmanship, he might have been shot instead of his horse.
I do not understand what valley you are talking in. Reno is/was in the Little Bighorn valley. Custer moved into Cedar and MTC Couelee's. Benteen was moving from valley to valley.
According to Wagner and Gray, Benteen gets into the Reno battle position anywhere from 1400-1500 local time. A few minutes later, 1410-1510, Godfrey and others hear volley firing. In my view this can only come from the firing in Medicine Trail Coulee. Three companies are to the North on Nye-Cartwright Ridge relatively close to Calhoun Hill. The others are down south along Luce Ridge. They regiment (-) is under fire from Two Moons band and maybe others who have broken off from Reno and moved along the Coulees, and still other's may be boiling up from Ford B. The enemy is in between Custer and Reno/Benteen.
I think maybe Weir is seeing the destruction of L and C on Calhoun Hill from Weir Point. I flat out don't believe he could see all the way to LSH because it would be obscured by dust from Calhoun Hill and the rest. It was barely visible to me when I took the photo I uploaded.
I suspect, as I will relate later, Custer is indeed going to move L to Calhoun Hill, and moving NE, but he has not, except for moving L from its position as tail end charlie on Nye-Cartwright to Calhoun Hill covered by the other two companies. E and F are also moving that way.
Just my opinion.
Just where do you think Custer is attacking? Between Calhoun Hill and Ford D? They are on a ridge. In my view, Custer is still in MTC and has been attacked. He is NOT attacking anything. The way MAY be open for him to head NW along Battle Ridge.
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Post by quincannon on Jan 22, 2023 15:20:35 GMT
I agree with Mike here. Custer did not have a plan. What he had was an intent. Intent does not become a plan, until the intent is transmitted to subordinates, and coordinated with them. So, one cannot be at all generous here toward Custer, because he was "winging" his intent
I completely disagree when both of you seem to be agreeing that the Benteen trip was by any stretch of the imagination necessary. I dismiss entirely Custer sending Benteen off to insure he (Benteen) was out of the fight. I further disagree that, even if ridding himself of Benteen was not the motivation, the trip was in anyway necessary in the first place. What is the requirement for an armed reconnaissance or a reconnaissance in force here? None, Zero, Nada. Supernumbskull move, and that is me being very generous. One pair of eyes is all that is required. Only one. One will do, to determine if there is any opposition out to the west.
Custer did not send Butler anywhere. Custer doing so would be a direct violation of both protocol and the chain of command, Butler was sent but Custer did not send him. The only man on Planet Earth that had that authority was James Calhoun. We have another Kanipe here. Custer, Cooke, or no one else on God's Green Earth sent Kanipe anywhere. Tom Custer his company commander sent Kanipe, just as Kanipe said, because Tom Custer was commanding Company C, and not horse holding for his brother, as some of the "old sages" of this battle have it (mainly because they are stupid and cannot add two and two). Had Tom Custer not been in command of C at the time, Kanipe would have been dispatched by Harrington, the acting commander, no one else. When someone (in this instance Kanipe) tells you a story, you have an obligation to believe what the man says, unless you have solid evidence at the time the man is telling an untruth, or you later gain that evidence. It has been a hundred forty seven years and no such evidence yet exists. Everyone keep in mind these fellows were pros, and professionals have their own standards in how they do things. Proper utilization of the chain of command is one of those standards.
Time to get dressed for church. More will come to mind later.
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Post by miker on Jan 22, 2023 18:26:38 GMT
Chuck is correct about Benteen. I have said many times, Custer should have kept the regiment together as a fist rather than probing with fingers. I stand corrected.
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Jan 23, 2023 8:02:06 GMT
Let me start by saying my intent is not to judge Custer but to try to understand what the movements were, especially in the last phase of the battle. I am happy to talk of his intent rather than plan as the comment relative to the use of the word plan is well taken.
The order to Butler certainly came from Calhoun, somewhere in editing I slipped up. Let me make it clear, however, that picking up that kind of thing is exactly why I value your input gentlemen. I will leave the error in place so that other readers may follow the action.
Mike
You use Fred Wagner’s time line. I have the greatest respect for Fred’s work. We had a falling out after I visited the battle field and could see that the notion that Custer took Companies E and F to Ford B (in MTC) was deeply flawed. In his book Fred supports this move by the accounts of some Sioux warriors. I was able to show (using Fred’s research) that all those men were fighting Reno and by Fred’s own timeline could not have been back at Ford B in time to see Custer approach Ford B.
I take no pleasure in this and deeply regret my differences with Fred, but I must be guided by the facts evident in the data.
Hence your time references do not work for me, nor does the idea that Custer took any companies down to the river in MTC.
My proposition is that Custer followed the path you describe over Luce and Nye Cartwright ridges and then moved down the East flank of Battle Ridge. He deployed his troops with Company E around Cemetery Ridge and the other companies stretched along Battle Ridge Extension (the portion of Battle Ridge that is North of Last Stand Hill stretching down to the highway).
From here they moved down into the Valley of the Little Big Horn and attempted to cross the river. This is what I have called the Northern Valley. In the past it has been called Ford D but Northern Valley is, I believe, a better geographic reference.
My contention is that when Custer was forced to leave the river here in the Northern Valley he moved his force back to the ridges he had come down from.
You may remember that you and I had a discussion at one point where we came to the conclusion that the movement of Companies L, then C, then I from these positions in the North back towards their end points around Calhoun Hill did not reflect the spacing required to be the result of a movement by bounds.
My latest effort is a reassessment of the Indian accounts to propose why these Companies were where they are found around Calhoun Hill while Custer and E and F are still on Last Stand Hill and Cemetery Ridge.
Cheers
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Post by miker on Jan 23, 2023 13:19:24 GMT
Mac, I recommend you edit your opening statement to reflect corrections made rather than making a reader go through the whole thread. I also recommend you label assumptions or suppositions as such or use the words "I think" or " I believe" indicating your statement is not a fact. Butler was in C Company, was he not? Thus Calhoun obviously did not send an order to himself using Butler. I believe you mean from George or Tom Custer or from Harrington. I do not believe there is any evidence of an order to Butler, is there? That is an assumption on your part that he was sent based on where his body was found on the ground. We only know about Kanipe because he met Benteen and (perhaps) went to the trains and Martini because he went to Benteen and had a written note. Butler's body could be by Ford B because he was with C just south of L Company and was able to make his way near Ford B before being killed. His body is not anywhere on the way or near L Company. We only know where he was found. In my little analysis, I used two items from Wagner's time line. The arrival of Benteen on Reno Hill and the time they heard the volley firing. The evidence of heavy volley firing is on the Bonifade map. My problem with Wagner's times is they are too precise, but I think his sequence, which is similar to Gray's, although their times in places are radically different, are basically the same and are fairly accurate. That is why I fixed the beginning of my scenario (analysis is probably too strong for my work) on the combination of Benteen arriving and the firing. From that T=0 marker, you can select any time you want to mark different events. I also state the times are in a range such as T+10 +/- 5 which can drastically shorten or stretch the length of time various events take. The skirmish lines show one of two things: 1. Custer had divided his battalion into two wings and deployed one in the north and one in the south. The one is the south is clearly nearer Ford B. 2. Custer moved the entire battalion first along the southern screen line and then up to the northern screen line. I am not saying Custer took E and F to Ford B. I am saying it is reasonable and/or more likely than not, he dispatched a recon party was sent to/near the Ford to see what is up. Greene's map shows artifacts. There are markers for two troopers from L near the Ford. Martini says they somehow determined the village was empty. The attached view shed shows that is would be very difficult to see the ford from either skirmish line. I have not tried to establish sight lines from the likely places Custer and Martini could have occupied and seen the ford and the village. You have got to get close enough to see the area. I will respond to your other comments later.
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Jan 24, 2023 2:07:00 GMT
Butler is Company L and there is an Indian account of a single rider heading South whom they intercepted. They say he dismounted on a rise and defended himself with very accurate and dangerous fire until someone worked around behind him and killed him. Butler was the best shot in Company L and he was found on his face with arrows to the back. Under his body was a pile of cartridge cases. From this I conclude a Sergeant who is a single rider is a messenger with an important message. The body details makes me believe Butler, Company L, was the single rider in the Indian account.
Company C Sergeant, found dead next to Keogh's body, is Sgt Bobo. I believe he was carrying an important message from Harrington Company C, back to Keogh. Incidentally, Keogh's body is also surrounded by Keogh's NCOs; making me believe Keogh had stopped to issue orders based on Bobo's message.
"Martini says they somehow determined the village was empty." Martini said the village looked quite or words to that effect. Interestingly when I discussed this with Fred he said he thought it was rubbish and that Martini was not a reliable witness in his opinion. If Martini thought the village was empty that would indicate perhaps that all the fighters were out getting their mounts etc.
"The attached view shed shows that is would be very difficult to see the ford from either skirmish line" Yes it cannot be seen. This line of cartridges is, in my view, Custer's trail North and the firing is at Wolf Tooth and his pals. The importance of not seeing Ford D is the corollary; Ford D can't see this trail. Custer came through MTC (where he could have easily observed Ford B from a distance and dismissed it as an attack option). Coming this way prevents him being seen from the village.
I believe that the reason Custer diverged right from the valley was that Custer had decided to move along the high ground East of the river to bypass the left flank of the Indian defensive line that was forming in front of Reno in the valley below. Going this way, covertly, he could then drop back into the valley further North as a nasty surprise for the Indians. Of course he was observed by Indians along the way (he was seen by women who were in MTC, and by Wolf Tooth's group), and the village did know that he was heading towards the North end of the village. Crazy Horse got the message that Custer was heading towards the village while he was in the valley at the Reno fight.
Put yourself in Custer's saddle Mike. If you are trying to move covertly past the Indian defense and the village is in front of Ford B, are you going anywhere near Ford B?
If you won't then why would Custer? In my view Custer is moving North as quickly and as quietly as he can. Now it may not be a good idea (and I will post a timing aspect to that next) but, to me, the evidence supports that that is what he is doing.
Cheers
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Post by miker on Jan 24, 2023 13:56:07 GMT
Hi Mac: It is an unlikely route for Butler as a messenger to ride from Calhoun Hill to Keogh, and then head South after delivering a message. It is much more likely (and simple) he road SW from Calhoun Hill and ended up near Ford B. EDIT: Here is a composite map with two of the myrid possible paths shown. Red shows a path from F to I and then toward Ford B while Green shows a path that has Butler moving with other troopers but managing to escape to near Ford B. I am not saying either are right or wrong, but the green path (or one close to it) seems like it may be more survivable. The only thing we know is Butler ended up at or near (+/-100m) from the spot of the marker.It is more likely to me, troops were massed around Keogh to try and protect him. It takes discipline to not try to protect your people and maintaining proper positions, especially under close attack. With regard to Custer and the village. I believe you are conflating current knowledge and not thinking like you only have the information Custer had. There is no line of sight from the vicinity of Ford A to the village. At that point no one had seen the "village" along the Little Bighorn. Reno did not see it until he was nearing the end of his charge and formed his skirmish line. Only Boyer, the Crows, and the Sioux knew where Ford B was. When Custer turned to the right, abandoning Reno, and went up Reno Hill he did not know if there were any Indians along that route and was trusting his luck to find it. In the wargame The Little Bighorn (the one that I am holding ( Picture) in Chucks thread on my trip) where you know the village location and can check the line of sight, you can avoid being spotted by Indians. To warn the village the 7th must come with a certain distance on an Indian. Turning Bear's band is near Ford A and can triggering the warning and move to the village to warn the group. (I believe Turning Bear - a Sans Arc - was the group at the Lone Teepee, but am not sure. I searched some of my books and don't see that name. You probably will find it before I do, if you care to look.) The Indians are prohibited from moving until that happens.) thus avoiding detection and able to sneak up on the Indians. You can purchase from Legion Wargames. You might be able to find it in Australia which has a fair sized wargaming community. Interestingly, Wolf Tooth is not portrayed in the game. This encyclopedia knowledge of force strength, deployment, and actions is a disadvantage in two player wargames. To get a better idea of the situation, you need to have three games and at least three players. One for each side and an umpire. Only the umpire has the full picture. He informs each player of enemy locations and actions as the game progresses. Were I in Custer's place, I would (1) probably followed my orders and send Herrendeen down Tullocks Creek, continued up the Rosebud and discovered the battle there, then gone down the Little Bighorn and the Indians would probably have escaped the two columns or (2) followed Reno up the valley, and/or (3) kept the Regiment together. Kind Regards Mike
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Jan 25, 2023 12:08:02 GMT
I think you need to read my post above again Mike. Cheers
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Post by miker on Jan 25, 2023 13:04:33 GMT
I think not. Kind regards.
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Post by quincannon on Jan 25, 2023 16:20:54 GMT
I am in a fog here. I do not understand what you are saying about Butler Mike. Not at all. Calhoun dispatched Butler to ride for help. It was a good choice sending an experienced NCO, for two reasons,(1) his experience offered the best chance of him making it through, and, (2) who better to let Benteen/Reno know what was going on up north than someone who knew the business.
We are not really sure when Calhoun dispatched Butler but it was most likely as Company L left the northern battle space. Almost if not immediately I would wager when there was nothing in the way of friendlies from LSH back to the Reno area. He was a lone rider, because covering this territory I mentioned he was all alone. There is not much doubt about the route 1SG Butler took, south along Battle Ridge, then into and out of Deep Coulee sliding to his left in the direction of Weir Point and finally meeting his fate in the Butler Ridge area having been run to ground.
I mention this because I see no Keogh in the picture, Keogh was nowhere near Butler's route at the time. He did not stop he did not backtrack. He knew exactly where he must go, and made a valiant effort to do so.
I do not think you understand what Mac was saying here. Perhaps you should re-read that portion.
Now Mac, I think you are all wet about 1SG Bobo carrying an important message from Harrington. Do you really think there was time on F-F Ridge for Harrington to do anything but fight his company? I emphatically do not, nor was there a need to send a message. What could it possibly contain, when it would have been completely apparent to anyone in the area that C was engaged and in trouble. That said I think you are taking a shower if you buy into all that feel good crap about Keogh gathering his NCO's about him to issue orders, or for that matter stopping to do so. That is more "Death of Wolfe at Quebec" Doo Wop. Lolly Pop Crap, from the Victorian era where romance, not reality, was the order of the day. Any commander in that situation who would stop and gather his leadership around him given what he was confronted with should be shot for abject stupidity. Issue orders on the fly, that what trumpets and arm and hand signals are for. If we are to understand these things we must think like soldiers think, do what trained soldiers do, and not regress into Prince Albert chatting with Lady Snobshit, at Aunt Dinah's Quilting Party and Barn Dance
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Post by miker on Jan 25, 2023 16:32:04 GMT
I relooked the message.
It is a supposition Butler was sent to someone for help. We do not know who he went to, the logical person to me is Keogh. Regardless of where he was going and how he actually went, he ended up in the neighborhood of Ford B. L was destroyed. So his mission failed and is of no consequence.
I conjoined Butler with Bobo. I apologize for the lapse. It is a supposition Bobo was sent to someone for help. Bobo could be near Keogh for at least two reasons. 1. He was sent by Harrington or Custer to Keogh for help. 2. He ran from C to L as the unit broke. We don't know. All we know he died with Keogh and C was destroyed. So his mission failed and is of no consequence.
You can conclude whatever you want. I conclude they both ran.
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Post by quincannon on Jan 25, 2023 16:39:32 GMT
No we don't know that Butler was sent for help. It is an assumption. It's is a hell of a lot better assumption though than 1SG Butler deserting his post undre fire which is the only other alternative. If it was Private Little Johnny Dew Rag all sorts of motives and missions can be derived from sending him, but not Butler, one of the most respected men in the regiment.
1SG Bobo was another well respected man in the regiment. He could have been with Keogh for any number of good reasons, all legitimate. One of them though was not carrying a message from Harrington.
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