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Post by rollingthunder on Jan 20, 2023 18:00:04 GMT
I also agree with this assessment: "This company's successful withdrawal indicates that the other four could have withdrawn as well".
"Why in heaven's name did Custer choose close engagement, when his target had already been proven out of reach". Chuck, this question of yours sums it up. Why didn't he get out of there when he could? The answer may be in its penultimate paragraph: "my only conclusion is that George saw something that is unknown to us, something the Indian narratives, and the evidence are not showing us in this latter day".
If so, we will never know. We cannot enter the brain of a dead man and decipher any enigma. What did Custer see? That seems like it's going to be a question for eternity. If we meet him in the afterlife we will ask him.
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Post by quincannon on Jan 20, 2023 20:49:43 GMT
And who was it that said people in Spain spend all their time basking in the warm sun and drinking Sangria? Seems they do some thinking too.
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Post by yanmacca on Jan 20, 2023 21:04:42 GMT
If we look at these accounts three very different views, but they all have a common theme that Custer went to the river and was repulsed causing them to go back to the high ground, there they simply lost their horses.
Wolftooth???The soldiers followed the ridge down to the present cemetery site. Then this bunch of forty or fifty Indians came out by the monument and started shooting down at them again. But they were moving on down toward the river, across from the Cheyenne camp. Some of the warriors there had come across, and they began firing at the soldiers from the brush in the river bottom. This made the soldiers turn north, but they went back in the direction they had come from, and stopped when they got to the cemetery site. And they waited there a long time-twenty minutes or more.
American Horse said: Then they all rushed down below and saw Custer coming down the hill and almost to the river. I was one of the first to meet the troops, and the Indians and the soldiers reached the flat about the same time. When Custer saw them coming, he was down at the river bottom at the river's bank. The troops there fought in skirmish line, and there they fought for some little time. Then the troops gave way and the Indians followed them up the hill. The troops fell back mounted all the way up the hill. They remained mounted as long as they had their horses, but soon the Indians completely surrounded them.
Horned Horse claimed Custer made a dash to cross the river, but was met by such tremendous fire that he pulled back, losing a couple of men in the water. He claimed all the troops dismounted during their pullback from the river.
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Post by rollingthunder on Jan 20, 2023 21:56:29 GMT
Yes Ian, all the indian accounts say more or less the same about this part of the battle. But the point of this thread is to find out why if Custer was able to get Company L out of the mess, why he didn't get all the others out.
Regarding sangria, it´s better not to ask for it in any beach bar or restaurant. It´s better to drink a glass of poison. You will die with less suffering. They make it with bad wine, I have never seen any spaniard order sangria in those places.
It´s very easy to make and it´s very refreshing. I'm going to give you my recipe: A liter of red or white wine (according to anyone's particular taste). The wine that is of a lot of graduation because with the ingredients it will be watered down. A half liter of orange juice. The juice of a lemon. Fruit cut into cubes (the best is the peach). A few slices of orange. Three tablespoons of sugar and a pinch of cinnamon. Ice to taste of each one. And my secret ingredient; a shot of gin. It cools down and is ready to drink.
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Post by quincannon on Jan 20, 2023 22:00:38 GMT
OK then, how did one company "go back over the ridge and we never seen again"? That would not have been possible if every one of those narratives are complete and accurate.
There is truth in all three I strongly suspect, but each of them suffer from the effects of translation. For instance, how much money are you willing to wager on Wolfie having a wristwatch? How much are you willing to wager that American Horse was more than likely not even there at the time. Other narratives tell of the Cheyenne, small in numbers, being on the east side of the river and concealed. Those narratives are inconsistent with what American Horse has to say, and are much more believable than Old Horsey. How much is anyone willing to bet, that Custer (himself) never got near that river. Remember, everyone wearing blue was Custer to these people. Taking an Indian narrative literally is not a wise course of action. That is particularly true when the narrative was not captured at or near the time of battle, and it is almost an article of faith that any narrative gleaned only after it has been handed down from one generation to the next has more embellishment than fact.
OK smart ass, you have turned over my hole card and discovered that I do not know much about Spain at all. Only a combat engineer would be so cruel
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Post by rollingthunder on Jan 20, 2023 23:15:18 GMT
Chuck, if you know about Spain, you know the main thing. What we like the most is to sit on the terraces of bars and drink wine or beer, sunbathe and let time pass slowly.
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Post by quincannon on Jan 20, 2023 23:55:15 GMT
And here all this time I though absolutely everyone in Spain spent all their waking hours contemplating the incomparable Isaac Albeniz and Joaquin Rodrigo two of music's brightest lights. Just love their work
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Post by rollingthunder on Jan 21, 2023 0:48:07 GMT
How great both of them. In my hometown both have their respective streets. An uncle of mine lived on Isaac Albéniz street, he has already died. Joaquín Rodrigo known worldwide for his Concierto de Aranjuez para guitarra.
Chuck, you know everything you need to know.
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Post by quincannon on Jan 21, 2023 3:45:11 GMT
Yes I even know that my favorite Western Movie song "South of the Border" Down Mexico way, was written by a Brit, and an Irishman, who never set foot in Mexico, but captured the feeling of the place, and the Spanish culture, music, and hospitality I so dearly love. I have the Gene Autry recording from the movie, but the absolute best rendition for my money was done by the Irish Tenors, Finbar Wright, Anthony Kearns, and Ronan Tynan.
I did make a copy of your Sangria recipe. Summer will come to the high desert, and I want to be prepared. Tonight, however Hot Chocolate is on the menu as it is snowing, cold as a well digger's ass, and the wind is going at about 40 knots.
Now back to the unimportant things like the subject of this thread
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Jan 21, 2023 11:54:03 GMT
We have indeed veered a little off my original intent, but the discussion is very helpful to me so thank you all. I have this big picture in my head and I am just working through getting it out in small bite sized pieces.
I am the first to admit that there may be no dramatic conclusion but at least we have a good Sangria recipe to show for it.
I will post again tomorrow when I have constructed a response; but let me say now, that if Custer sent Company L back South when exiting the valley, then it may be a clue to his possible motivation. To go on from that proposition I heed a little more time.
Cheers
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Post by yanmacca on Jan 21, 2023 14:01:58 GMT
To be honest Pachi, I have never drank sangria in Spain although the Germans seem fond of it . My Sister in Law makes a nice one though, but as a summer drink we are more likely to drink “Pim’s” with added gin . I only have red wine with my steak and rather have chilled Chardonnay when out at night. We have been Spain and its Islands over a dozen times and I enjoy San Miguel beer, but if I am drinking with the males in our family in Spain, we will drink Mahou red label as our favourite una caña . Back to the battle; Mac and all, I must admit that a lot of Indian accounts do sound the same, but which ones stand out for me are the ones that state things like “they formed skirmish lines near the river” and my all-time favorite “they led their horses up hill on foot” now these are what jump out at me because they are little things which are noted and can add more to our conversations. If it is true that they formed skirmish on the flats facing the river, then it could mean that intentions to either cover a withdrawal or engage threats coming at them, add that to the idea that they then walked off the flats reins in hand shows that the threat was not that bad. But that is the chance you take with NA Accounts, as some say they formed skirmish in Calhoun coulee and then walked with horse onto FFR, so as accounts go they can all fit into both fords. Why did Custer send L back? Maybe he wanted to make contact with units from the south and he was prepared to defend what he held until he could get Benteen into the fight. Custer had an ego and I would guess that he didn’t like running, even without L Company he had over 150 men, if L latched up with Benteen and maybe Company B, it would give him another 200 men. But hey, I am not spreading gospel here, you wanted a reason so I am throwing scenarios out there. Ian
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Post by rollingthunder on Jan 21, 2023 14:28:39 GMT
That's why the Germans go crazy after drinking the sangría. The English in Benidorm also drink a lot of sangría. San Miguel beer is very weak and is usually drunk by those who like to drink a lot, so they don't get drunk. Mahou beer is from Madrid and is the favorite of many. Those who like strong beer ask for Barcelona's Voll-Damm. Now let's get into the battle.
I don't think he sent L to find Benteen and bring him back. By the time L arrives and brings Benteen, it would have been about an hour and a half to two hours minimum. Too much time was given to the indians to prepare to fight and to break camp and flee.
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Post by yanmacca on Jan 21, 2023 14:58:52 GMT
I don't think San Miguel is that weak, the bottles we have buy in England are 5%, drink five pints of it and you will know the next day.
You are right about the Benteen distance but it needed posting. I feel that we look on this battle with the knowledge that we have read, Custer had no knowledge at all, as I don't think he knew that Reno was defeated or the location of benteen and the pack train, for all he knew the main Indian threat was in staces blocking Reno and he was being blocked by the remains of the fighters, the village was going nowhere at that point.
Another scenario is that he wanted to go back but he had to make sure the way was clear.
Ian
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Post by rollingthunder on Jan 21, 2023 15:49:29 GMT
The beer "San Miguel 1516" has 4.2% alcohol. There are other versions with more graduation. But the "San Miguel 1516" is the one preferred by beer drinkers. Around here people drink more than five beers.
The World ranking is led by the Czech Republic with 468 beers per person per year. Second place is Spain with 417. Third is Germany with 411. United Kingdom is far behind with 244.
Ian: Another scenario is that he wanted to go back but he had to make sure the way was clear. And how was L going to let Custer know the way was clear? Sending a detachment back from Calhoun Hill? A lot of comings and goings and a lot of wasted time
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Post by quincannon on Jan 21, 2023 16:08:34 GMT
"A lot of comings and goings, and a lot of wasted time".
A tactician only has two friends, his combat power and the clock. He is ill advised to waste either. What could forty pairs of eyes tell Custer, that one pair could not tell his just as well?
If it was Company L that was sent back (it probably was) then the obvious reading of that decision is to follow with the rest in short order. Otherwise detaching L makes no sense whatsoever. Company L leaving (for any mission except advanced guard) without the intention of following, is throwing the only two friends you have in the world under the bus.
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