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Post by Beth on Aug 4, 2015 23:52:38 GMT
Is it at all possible that when Cooke/Custer wrote the message that they had no reason to believe there would be confusion on where Benteen was to go? That either the entire 7th would be in the valley with Reno or Reno would be on the bluffs with Custer.
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Post by quincannon on Aug 5, 2015 0:45:27 GMT
Why would he ever want to go down Cedar Coulee with a pack train.
You move over Sharpshooter to Luce to N-C then behind Calhoun Hill to the swale area.
Just because Custer went down Cedar Coulee for one reason does not mean Benteen and the packs have to go that way, and they would be foolish if they did.
Someone refresh me here. Didn't Kanipe say something on the order of swing wide away from the bluffs?
Anyone that has the park brochure, can dig it out and see Custer's route marked in solid and dashed lines. The dashed lines are speculative and suggest that part or all of Custer's approach march swung up over Sharpshooter and did not go near Cedar Coulee. That would be the route to take, open area, away from the bluffs, just up and down hills with little if any restricted terrain.
We have to quit thinking what happened here, and start thinking what was intended to happen or what was expected to happen. Had Benteen not seen Reno in distress he would not have gone anywhere near Reno Hill I'd wager. His route was a but for, not his original intention.
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Post by yanmacca on Aug 5, 2015 13:50:37 GMT
I think the cedar coulee route was down to geography (it led to MTC), plus some things that Martini said and the notion that Custer wanted to keep out of sight, a few other posters from the other boards give some other reasons, perhaps because they had studied the area, which I have not and followed what they thought was the most likely trail.
If Custer did keep to the bluffs it may have been to keep some sort of visual on the village and Reno.
But I suppose if you had no need for concealment and you wanted to keep away from the river and bluffs then you would find an alternative.
Yan.
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Post by quincannon on Aug 5, 2015 16:48:42 GMT
Ian: I am not at all sure that all of Custer went down Cedar Coulee.
Godfrey says something about that trail over Sharpshooter Ridge and I have no reason to doubt him. It very well could be that Custer divided his half or so going down Cedar and the other half over the ridge.
Tom just read the Godfrey Diary, maybe he can shed some light on this.
Regardless taking that pack train into that coulee or into MTC would have been a self inflicted wound.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Aug 6, 2015 12:50:35 GMT
Chuck, you picked right up on that, Godfrey does not mention a split, it make sense though. Keogh and 3 could have moved into place while Custer and two moved to MTC via another route.
This mini book certainly shows that Godfrey's disdain grew for Reno over the years and he softens on GAC over the same period of time. It is also obvious that Benteen had little to no use for Reno.
Regards, Tom
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Post by yanmacca on Aug 6, 2015 13:14:06 GMT
Chuck, here is an old image posted by Clair about seven years ago and it has the route you mentioned, but look at the distance between 3411 and the main trail, Custer would have to move on a direct course away from the column. Yan. Attachments:
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Post by quincannon on Aug 6, 2015 16:38:00 GMT
If Custer split, as we know he did both before and after, it could very well be that he went to 3411 or thereabouts with two companies in tow, and then down Cedar Coulee, while the other three traveled over Sharpshooter meeting Custer's two somewhere around Luce Ridge. Had he done so Custer could have easily peeled of and had a look see at the valley.
If my memory is correct, Tom correct me if not, all Godfrey says is that he picked up a trail of shod horses heading northward over Sharpshooter and then to Luce and so forth. Evidently that is the route Godfrey took to the Custer area o the 27th. He never went the other direction as far as I know.
Custer obviously had a reason for going into Cedar Coulee. Don't know what it was. What I do know is entering a defile when contact could be expected at any time does not seem all that wise on the face of it, but entering that same defile with all your eggs in the same basket even less so.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Aug 6, 2015 19:04:29 GMT
Chuck, I saw nothing about where he picked up the trail of those shod hooves. So I will venture a guess, he left Reno Hill the same way they left for the Weir Point two nights earlier and picked up the trail somewhere along the way. They probably did not notice on the 25th. Which begs the question, why did they miss it on the 25th.
Regards, Tom
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Post by Beth on Aug 6, 2015 19:41:12 GMT
If Custer split, as we know he did both before and after, it could very well be that he went to 3411 or thereabouts with two companies in tow, and then down Cedar Coulee, while the other three traveled over Sharpshooter meeting Custer's two somewhere around Luce Ridge. Had he done so Custer could have easily peeled of and had a look see at the valley. If my memory is correct, Tom correct me if not, all Godfrey says is that he picked up a trail of shod horses heading northward over Sharpshooter and then to Luce and so forth. Evidently that is the route Godfrey took to the Custer area o the 27th. He never went the other direction as far as I know. Custer obviously had a reason for going into Cedar Coulee. Don't know what it was. What I do know is entering a defile when contact could be expected at any time does not seem all that wise on the face of it, but entering that same defile with all your eggs in the same basket even less so. Okay I sort of belong to the Judge Judy axioms of life. If it doesn't make sense, it's probably not true. However I add a couple of my own adages. 1) If it doesn't make sense but you still know it's true, then you don't have all the information and 2) people do things that can go against all logic--like jumping off of a bridge without knowing the depth of the river below. To me a lot of what Custer did was jumping off of a bridge into unknown waters. I can understand why Custer would want to travel to 3411 to see what is going on below. Why though did he split before he knew what he was facing? Is it an attempt to scout like when he sent Benteen off? When, if ever, are there any signs that Custer was preparing for a battle? Did Custer ever believe that he would have to defend a position or does everything he did say he was expecting to chase the village. As I said I am currently reading about Rosebud and it makes me question on how Custer, if he had the intelligence from Rosebud, would have acted different. Or would he have?
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Post by quincannon on Aug 6, 2015 19:41:21 GMT
Tom: Godfrey discovered the trail on the 28th, not the 27th, and from his description the place could only be the Sharpshooter-Luce-NC Complex. He was out with his trumpeter looking for strays that may have escaped at the time.
The account is included in the Century article, and I suspect that account provides the basis for those two speculative approach march lines that join into a solid line near Luce Ridge found in the park brochure.
Beth I just don't know. I would have avoided Cedar and Medicine Tail Coulees. Low ground is not a good place to be when you might find a firefight around the next corner. Cedar, being a restricted narrow defile more so than the other. Please remember the place where they would have split off is on the Reno Hill ground where an oblique to the right takes you up to Sharpshooter, and going straight leads directly past 3411, with the entrance to Cedar Coulee not very far north of that. It is very hard for me to find logical reason for something I would take pains to avoid.
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Post by Beth on Aug 6, 2015 19:47:19 GMT
Chuck, I saw nothing about where he picked up the trail of those shod hooves. So I will venture a guess, he left Reno Hill the same way they left for the Weir Point two nights earlier and picked up the trail somewhere along the way. They probably did not notice on the 25th. Which begs the question, why did they miss it on the 25th. Regards, Tom Because they weren't looking? They rode to Weir Point because it was a high point and from there they could see what they thought was Custer's position. How Custer got there wasn't important at that moment. If they couldn't see or hear the battle, then finding the tracks might have been more important. I think perhaps things like what way the shod hooves went are only became really important when you are trying to figure out what happened or went wrong.
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Post by yanmacca on Aug 6, 2015 20:12:28 GMT
One thing that we are all forgetting here is that Custer was moving fast, there is enough accounts to this from the survivors (stragglers and couriers), so there would be little time to formulate a plan of approach, they did though split somewhere along the trail with Keogh heading along the ridge lines.
Yan.
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Post by quincannon on Aug 6, 2015 20:13:37 GMT
Beth: Occam's Razor again. The most simple direct answer is usually true. They were not looking for it.
If you look at that pictomap, Conz has them all going via Sharpshooter, and Custer peeling off, during a pre-combat check halt to move back and then north again to 3411. I don't know if he still holds that view, but I can find no fault with it.
I think a careful reading of Godfrey's Century article would suggest that he included this to refute the then popular theory that Custer went to the river (Ford B). I suppose Godfrey did not take much notice of the fact that you can both walk and chew gum.
What is the genesis of Cedar Coulee as a route. Does anyone know? I sure don't but if I had to venture a guess it had something to do with being blinded by what happed again, rather than trying to figure out, what, might, could, or was most likely to happen.
We know that Custer was seen. Some still dispute it was Custer, but some will always dispute. From that we conclude that Custer had 209 of his nearest and dearest close by. Who says they have to be? Who says they could not be five hundred meters away? So if we assume they are close by, it becomes reasonable to continue in the cardinal direction of travel, which allows only two ways to insert the column back into the historical narrative, Weir Point, which is a non-starter, or Cedar Coulee. If you could not use Weir, you must use Cedar.
Look at the map Ian posted again then transpose it onto a larger map showing the entire area to the north, and I believe anyone will see that it is a much better route, it fits into the later historical narrative, and for those that find Custer faultless it puts an attaboy on Custer's scorecard.
Let us also please remember as we ponder these things that 3411 is itself a fabrication out of whole cloth. There is no neon sign there saying this is the place to the exclusion of all others. No memorial footprints cast in concrete as some manner of shrine. The truth is we do not know where Custer viewed the action in the valley from. 3411 is an ideal spot offering a good view, but there are others, perhaps not as good along that same line of bluffs. Assuming fact, from something not in evidence, may lead us down trails we do not wish to go. 3411 is bolstered by logic, but several other places cannot be excluded because 3411 is there.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Aug 6, 2015 20:43:07 GMT
All, I have a dumb question to throw out. If some of Reno's troops saw Custer waving his, who is to say the NA's did not see this as well? Could that not be the reason CH or others peeled off to address the new threat? Ok maybe that was two questions!
Regards, Tom
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Post by Beth on Aug 6, 2015 20:48:07 GMT
Beth: Occam's Razor again. The most simple direct answer is usually true. They were not looking for it. If you look at that pictomap, Conz has them all going via Sharpshooter, and Custer peeling off, during a pre-combat check halt to move back and then north again to 3411. I don't know if he still holds that view, but I can find no fault with it. I think a careful reading of Godfrey's Century article would suggest that he included this to refute the then popular theory that Custer went to the river (Ford B). I suppose Godfrey did not take much notice of the fact that you can both walk and chew gum. What is the genesis of Cedar Coulee as a route. Does anyone know? I sure don't but if I had to venture a guess it had something to do with being blinded by what happed again, rather than trying to figure out, what, might, could, or was most likely to happen. We know that Custer was seen. Some still dispute it was Custer, but some will always dispute. From that we conclude that Custer had 209 of his nearest and dearest close by. Who says they have to be? Who says they could not be five hundred meters away? So if we assume they are close by, it becomes reasonable to continue in the cardinal direction of travel, which allows only two ways to insert the column back into the historical narrative, Weir Point, which is a non-starter, or Cedar Coulee. If you could not use Weir, you must use Cedar. Look at the map Ian posted again then transpose it onto a larger map showing the entire area to the north, and I believe anyone will see that it is a much better route, it fits into the later historical narrative, and for those that find Custer faultless it puts an attaboy on Custer's scorecard. I am going to have to go back and reread Godfrey-it's been a few months and my memory is in the fuzzy zone again. I agree that Custer going to 3411 makes sense and put it in my mostly likely category of events. Custer would want to know what is going on with Reno and he doesn't seem to be the type that will just take someone else's word or observations. I don't know who else was with him on the point, I suspect it was Tom but it should have been someone with more experience with strategy. Tom might have been brave and loyal but he strikes me as a person who operates from the seat of his pants, not with a plan. From 3411 then traveling down Cedar Coulee might make sense as the most direct way up to the rest of the regiment, at least until or if it flattened out towards the top. It's a good think it didn't end in an abrupt dead end like Deep Ravine.
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