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Post by quincannon on May 28, 2021 19:07:29 GMT
I heard it once said Mike that fifty percent, give or take, of human kind cannot read a map. In fact it is much worse than that, for not being able to read a map, may very well mean that the person has never been trained to do so. Rather it is that this fifty percent speaks to those multitudes not being able to conceive that a map is a graphic representation of the earth's surface as seen from above.
The biggest problem I see with witness statements at Little Big Horn, is that had these people known that what they have to say would be studied and parsed over for a hundred forty five years and counting, they would have paid more attention. To them this battle was a small incident in the settlement of the American West. They had no idea of the future importance some would place on it. Now Gettysburg is a different story. Everyone there knew this was a big deal on 4 July 1863, and most of them took notes.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2021 19:17:14 GMT
I am not surprised at the 50% figure. It would have helped if Custer's BN had not been totally destroyed and wiped out to a man. (Destroyed today does not mean wiped out, hence the repetition). I just finished two books on the Charge of the Light Brigade and while there are issues, at least there are people who wrote down stuff. The written orders appear to have sucked, just the same as Custer's orders. I am not really sure our overly detailed orders of today are any better.
When I was an LT, the acme of skill was to be able to generate a complete order with just an overlay and proper graphics.
What I'd really like to know is did anyone even have maps with them. I don't think I ever see John Waybe with one except in "The Longest Day".
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Post by yanmacca on May 28, 2021 19:53:27 GMT
Tweed, do you mean Pvt Thomas Tweed of company L?, I have him as being killed on Custer hill; Here is what Fred has about him;
Body found on Custer Hill, 50 yards up from Boston Custer, split up the crotch, shot with arrows in both eyes. Listed number 224 in “June Returns, Alterations… Killed in action.”
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Post by quincannon on May 28, 2021 21:22:25 GMT
I will take that right to the bank Ian, and deposit it where I do all of Wagner's "I know everything" pronouncements, in the bank's latrine.
There is not a living soul that could mark each and every location of all those bodies with any degree of accuracy. The people that buried them could not recognize most of them, so how in the hell could anyone who was not there be that specific? He is blowing smoke up your ass Ian.
Wagner has absolutely no interest in anyone from Company L being in that area, except on Custer Hill, so that person can be pawned off as an orderly or messenger, for it blows his theory, and agenda all to hell, and you may tell him I said so.
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Post by yanmacca on May 29, 2021 9:02:15 GMT
Not been in touch with him in over a year Chuck. That is quite old data off Fred, he may have changed it now, but it is all I have.
Well if you and Tom have any new info on Tweed, can you both enlighten me please.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on May 29, 2021 11:50:46 GMT
Thank you again Chuck, regarding Tweed and Company. I would think it might very well indicate that his Company did not sit on their hands on Calhoun Hill and allow Henryville to fill up.
Ian, you know of my friendship with Fred, but I will take some issue here with body placements, I will offer an educated opinion here, Custer's younger brother and his nephew were found in the Cemetery area, as was Tweed. By the way do you think Boyer's marker is located where his body was found?
Mike,the best maps of the battlefield environs were between the ears of Boyer and Herendeen. Herendeen had been there two years before on an expedition, detailed in a recent book by French Maclean.
Regards, Tom
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2021 12:09:36 GMT
Thank you again Chuck, regarding Tweed and Company. I would think it might very well indicate that his Company did not sit on their hands on Calhoun Hill and allow Henryville to fill up. Ian, you know of my friendship with Fred, but I will take some issue here with body placements, I will offer an educated opinion here, Custer's younger brother and his nephew were found in the Cemetery area, as was Tweed. By the way do you think Boyer's marker is located where his body was found? Mike,the best maps of the battlefield environs were between the ears of Boyer and Herendeen. Herendeen had been there two years before on an expedition, detailed in a recent book by French Maclean. Regards, Tom Tom, regarding maps. Yes. What really mystifies me is Custer sent Benteen out without any guides. How would he expect him to find his way back quickly or even recognize the LBH valley without one. So much for expecting rapid response/reinforcement from Benteen, although Benteen was probably the best guy for the job.
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Post by yanmacca on May 29, 2021 12:17:31 GMT
Hi Mike. He would have expected Benteen to move back into the valley, there the trail made by the regiment would be easy to pick up.
Hi Tom. I have to rely on other peoples research to find info, I don't know where Bouyer was actually killed, but I recall a clip made about bone fragments which matched his profile. But again, digging up cheek bones and matching them to old photos, would be rather hit and miss.
Do you know of any new info on grave sites?
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Post by deadwoodgultch on May 29, 2021 13:50:17 GMT
Mike, if Benteen had followed orders to the letter he would have hit the south fork of Reno Creek, and if he had continued on in that direction he would had missed the bend in the Little Bighorn River, near Ford A. If he had only gone as far as South Fork Reno Creek, Reno's command may have been slaughtered and I fear the packtrain would have been engaged.
Ian,in 2019 Steve and I did some work and took some pictures for Fred and a retired one star on a marker project.
Regards, Tom
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Post by yanmacca on May 29, 2021 14:24:56 GMT
Did you find something new on the markers Tom. Did it alter Fred's view in anyway?
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Post by quincannon on May 29, 2021 17:59:09 GMT
Tom: Calhoun's background was in the Infantry. I think the last thing an Infantryman would do was position his company at the bottom of a hill, for he would be quite well aware of fires that could reach out accurately to 200 meters or more, and would position himself so as to achieve maximum effect of his fires. Sitting at the bottom of a hill and firing up hill is no way to do that. My main bitch with Wagner is that in attempting to weave his story he seems to have forgotten all he ever learned about tactics, techniques, and procedures (TTP). Perhaps he never learned them at all, but I kind of doubt that is the case. The Bible, Ecclesiastes 3:1, tells us for everything there is a season. With TTP, for every action there is a reason. Those are words to live by.
We have only a phrase to aid us in location of Tweed, " up the ridge". Up the ridge, when using Kellogg's body location, as discovered by Gibbon, would leave one with the logical conclusion that it was the same ridge that Kellogg's body was found near the base of, and that ridge is now known as Cemetery Ridge. As to the brother and nephew, you must have more or different information than is available to me. As there was obviously fighting in the area now occupied by the cemetery, I do not discount the possibility that one or both were killed or seriously wounded in that location. There may in fact be some dusty file somewhere that lays out in detail what markers were removed from that area and where they were placed, so the Cemetery could be surveyed and built. Someone finding them at some future date would not qualify as the Holy Grail, but it would certainly be the discovery of one of the legs of the Round Table.
My own hypothesis is that the original line of battle, after leaving the immediate ford area was most probably stretched out along Cemetery Ridge, and the lower portion of Battle Ridge Extension. That was the first high ground available, and if that is the case, then there were more than likely five separate company positions, and the totality of the length of that position was probably between 1200 and 1500 meters, which would stretch it out down to near the trading post. The trading post area would have presented a open flank, and if you are a fan of Sharpe, as I am, you will learn in short order a unit caught in line, against mounted opposition, is very vulnerable. That right flank was just asking to get rolled up, and it would be fairly easy to do if other bad guy dismounts were to your front, demanding the bulk of your attention
SO, swinging around Putt's dining room, was most likely the initial cause for a fall back up BRE, and the unhinging of the CR position. All that is speculation, theory run rampant if you will, but it is based upon sound tactics, on the part of the Indians, and logical response to those tactics by Custer's battalion.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2021 18:17:21 GMT
Mike, if Benteen had followed orders to the letter he would have hit the south fork of Reno Creek, and if he had continued on in that direction he would had missed the bend in the Little Bighorn River, near Ford A. If he had only gone as far as South Fork Reno Creek, Reno's command may have been slaughtered and I fear the packtrain would have been engaged. Ian,in 2019 Steve and I did some work and took some pictures for Fred and a retired one star on a marker project. Regards, Tom I think if Benteen had followed orders to the letter, he would have come into the LBH at least as far South as Benteen and probably further. He would been out of the fight if he had not turned back when he did.
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Post by yanmacca on May 29, 2021 18:38:53 GMT
Poor Benteen got caught by a conflicting message, be quick and bring packs, now Custer nor Cooke knew where Benteen or the pack trail was, luckly enough at one point, the train was around a mile behind Benteen, so he would have had to wait for them to catch up. Now was Benteen shrewed enough to realise that the packs may have just meant the ammo packs, or would he drive on "quick!" as his orders stated and drag the full train with him.
That note was composed by two officers who didn't have a clue of the situation behind them and the note shows this.
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Post by quincannon on May 29, 2021 19:37:54 GMT
First off Ian, you do not know is the message was composed by two officers or only one. There is the old game, where one person gives a message to another, and he in turn repeats it to another until the message goes around the room to all the players, and the end result when the last player says aloud the message he received, that it comes out far different from the content of the original message. That is why, in the modern age, the best practice is to tell someone what you want them to do, then have them repeat back to you what you just told them, so you may be sure they understand what you want. With written communications the process is the same except the one who actually composes the message, in this instance Cooke, shows the commander the message to make sure it contains all the information and direction the commander wants it to contain. There is a scene in Pork Chop Hill that illustrates the process.
Any deviation from this practice then or now can be labeled slipshod, and carelessness has no place on the field of battle.
You are absolutely correct in that neither of them had any situational awareness as to where Benteen was at the time the note was sent or his present situation.
You don't let Benteen decide what you meant. You decide what you mean, and make it easy for him to obey, by issuing clear, concise, orders. SO, it was not Benteen that got caught by a conflicting message. It was Custer that got caught, by failing to do a proper job of commanding his subordinates.
The message said "PACKS". Had ammunition been what was required, it was incumbent upon the sender to say so. Officers are not mind readers, no matter how much some of these "I've got all the answers folks" may think they are. You dumb down to the lowest common denominator, everything you do on the battle field. You stay alive a lot longer that way, in that the people you need to direct know exactly what you want them to do. Any other method is both foolish and stupid.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2021 23:15:28 GMT
To me, "Packs" means all the trains, not just the Ammo. If my XO or CDR wanted me to move the ammo forward, they would say to me (and did) Mike, send the emergency ammo resupply to the artillery. It was loaded, stages and knew where to go. I did tell them I would move it but there wasn't any urgency. The guns still had enough ammo for 24 battalion 6 missions. So we had plenty of time. Well enough time that I wasn't worried. As it was, we didn't shoot that much more that day.
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