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Post by yanmacca on May 30, 2021 11:17:18 GMT
Before I write these theories of mine, I picture the scenario in my head, this time it was GAC saying to Cooke, this is a big village, we need to get Benteen involved pretty quick, he will need the packs too, and tell him to be quick! The rest is then down to Cooke, he scribbled the note and gave it to the Italian.
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Post by quincannon on May 30, 2021 18:06:21 GMT
Unfortunately Ian, the picture you envision in your head was probably exactly how it transpired.
Go to the Bard and read Richard III, and how he was unhorsed for the want of a simple nail to adequately fasten his horse's shoe. So it is here with the note, the combination of a lack of situational awareness, carelessness, slipshod practices, and inadequate attention to detail, may not have caused the battle to be lost, but certainly led to confusion, and a lack of focus on what was important to winning it.
We do things with precise procedures, not because they make us look like "nose in the air, we are better than you, dickwads" but rather because in the end those procedures done in a precise manner save lives.
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benteen
First Lieutenant
"Once An Eagle
Posts: 406
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Post by benteen on May 30, 2021 20:48:01 GMT
To me, "Packs" means all the trains, not just the Ammo. If my XO or CDR wanted me to move the ammo forward, they would say to me (and did) Mike, send the emergency ammo resupply to the artillery. Mike, I agree with you. In addition to your statement let me add that Benteen was no fool, he knew the Ammo was part of the pack train. If the note had said bring ammo, he would know that meant the mules carrying the ammo. Also.. I believe that Custer still thought he was on the offense and his going to what we call ford D (Which I believe he was doing) was in fact an offensive move not a move to put 5 companies on a hill (LSH) to hold off the enemy. His troops had 20000 rounds of carbine and 5000 rounds of pistol ammo which I believe is more thatn enough for an attack/assault on the enemy position. Be Well Dan
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Post by Beth on May 30, 2021 21:04:18 GMT
Before I write these theories of mine, I picture the scenario in my head, this time it was GAC saying to Cooke, this is a big village, we need to get Benteen involved pretty quick, he will need the packs too, and tell him to be quick! The rest is then down to Cooke, he scribbled the note and gave it to the Italian. The message has always read to me as if Cooke was making notes of what Custer was saying and then didn't have time to write a concise message--sort of an "oh *** this will have to do, get going" moment. I am trying to remember if there would have been pressure on them at that moment that would have meant that Cooke couldn't have written a clearer message.
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Post by quincannon on May 30, 2021 22:11:47 GMT
Beth: The essence of military professionalism is to go about whatever you are doing in a calm, deliberate, completely focused on the task manner under any and all circumstances. That is particularly true when you find yourself in the most trying of circumstances, when everything around you is GOING TO HELL IN A HAND BASKET. Your soldiers are always watching you. They take their lead from your demeanor. You being calm and going about your business, has a calming effect on them, a feeling of it really is not as bad as it seems, must be, look at the old man.
To do otherwise means that you have chosen the wrong career, and you would be much better off being a book keeper, or town barber.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2021 22:38:23 GMT
Well. what should have happened with Custer, Cooke, and Martini. Custer told Martini what to do. Martini should have repeated it back. Cooke, when he wrote it, should have showed it to Custer. Cooke then should have made a copy (and maybe he did), THEN Martini should have galloped off to find Benteen.
EDIT: Well, what really should have happened, is Custer should have formed a better order. Then all the other stuff above.
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Post by yanmacca on May 31, 2021 10:15:31 GMT
I think when that note was written, things had begun to heat up a little up. All the earlier excitement was gone, no hooping, hollering and hat waving now, but a rather more serious and tense flavour. So, Cooke, would be taking in these instructions from GAC and maybe even writing them as he was saying them, as the note does look like it was written in earnest to me. But if it was just a simple order for Benteen to get into the fight, then the “Benteen be quick, big village” part serves its purpose, the packs part is a distraction, it should have said “send a rider to Mathey to bring the train forward”.
If that was a simple order for Benteen to get his 117 men into battle, then he could have watered his horses and got stuck in, but if he arrived ten minutes earlier and Reno was not in view, would he have followed Custer’s trail? With no packs to worry about, at what stage in the Custer moves north would he arrived at, would Custer be in view when Benteen reached Weir? But this is a topic for another thread, not this one.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2021 12:16:55 GMT
Iab,
Apparently, Custer told Martini, Martini was getting ready to ride off, Cooke said, Orderly, wait. I'll write a note. He wrote the note and gave instruction to Martini to follow their trail back, find Benteen, if he could come back safely, to reeturn, otherwise stay with his company.
Certainly, there was stress and stuff going on, but they were still in MTC and not in hevy contact, because the CUster Battalion still had time to ride North, scren around at Ford D, and return to the scene of the final battle. Vuster at this point was not decisively engaged.
I said in one of my earliest posts here that the order was understandable and it means exactly what it says to do. Benteen, the village is big, come (to me) quick. Bring the Packs. People on the board then said no that is not what it really means. It means bring the ammo. Hook up with Reno and all of you come. Don't worry about Reno, you just come to me. And several other interpretations.
Since Martini found Benteen, he should have been able to guide him back to Custer, but Benteen apparently didn't. If he had galloped all the way back to Custer his horses would have been blown, even if they were not already over stressed, and he likely would have been useless.
I like to think I would have ignored Reno's order, and ridden to the sound of the guns, but I don't really know what I would do. It seems to me from Reno's description, he wasn't sure where to go untii one of the scouts pointed him up toward where Reno was going. Chuck, if I remember correctly and understand him, would have been more cautious and send out some small scouting parties to try to figure just what was happening.
As Reno was arriving near Reno, it seems the Custer part of the fight was climaxing. Had he not discovered Reno and continued North, it seems very likely to me,he would have been caught in the open, on bad ground, strung out, and been destroyed, and then after chomping him for Desert (The Reno fight was the appetizer but unfinished, Custer the entre, Benteen desert), they would have gone back to police up the appetizer.
Custer's job is to make a plan, issue clear orders, designate and resource a main effort. He and Cooke probably thought the order was clear. I might have sent Cooke back with the order to make sure it would be properly understood and that he could have explained the mission, intent, and plan to Benteen. But an order delivered by anyone from the commander, written or not, clear or not, is delivered with the same force as if the commander was telling the other person on the spot.
When I worked in a Command Post, when I heard an order from the BN CDR to a company commander, I told the soldier keeping the log what to write down. If I didn't understand the order, I would ask for clarification. Sometimes the boss would snap at me and not repeat it. If I was a commander, I always made sure i understood what he wanted, especially if it was a deviation from the plan. And frequently I would offer suggestions to him as to how to proceed. A tendency every single one told me they appreciated.
He did not have a plan when he left the Crows Nest except to find the village (if it was really there). He made crap up as he went along. Detach Benteen to clear his flank. A reasonable action, but he did not give Benteen any scouts or a doctor. Would Benteen have recognized the LBH valley when he got into it? Did he even have a map? I supposed he had a compass. He detaches Reno with his own battalion, then sends them off to chase the Indians and then moves in a different direction, and shortly thereafter sends a message to Benteen, all the while continuing North.
(Not having a fully thought out plan is very German. "First the Panzer's punch a hole, then see what develops." As opposed to the US Army which is "Find the enemy, then call for fire." or the USMC which I, perhaps incorrectly, is "Find the enemy, launch a frontal attack with everything you got." Custer, till the LBH was lucky, not good. Some prefer luck.)
I don't think I would have done it that way. I think I would have followed my orders in the first place but I admit following thw trail after thinking I've been detected would probably have resulted in me moving that way. I like to think I was very good. I commanded two platoons (rare) commanded three tank companies (somewhat rarer), but was never a BN S-3 or XO, did not go to resident Command and General Staff College, culminated as a Brigade S-4, was passed over the first time for LTC, would have been a BN XO after that, but saw the writing on the wall and knew I would never command a battalion in the downsizing after Desert Storm, and left the service early after 16 years, then served 14 in the reserves), and was promoted to LTC in the reserves. So perhaps I was neither good or lucky.
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Post by yanmacca on May 31, 2021 15:18:42 GMT
The plan should have been, the 7th regiment in full, straight up the valley, Gibbon and Terry crossing at ford d, and the Gatling guns on Calhoun hill.
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Post by Beth on May 31, 2021 18:06:33 GMT
Well. what should have happened with Custer, Cooke, and Martini. Custer told Martini what to do. Martini should have repeated it back. Cooke, when he wrote it, should have showed it to Custer. Cooke then should have made a copy (and maybe he did), THEN Martini should have galloped off to find Benteen. EDIT: Well, what really should have happened, is Custer should have formed a better order. Then all the other stuff above. And perhaps chose a messenger who spoke English more fluently? Or was that a factor?
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Post by quincannon on May 31, 2021 18:11:56 GMT
Ian: The essence of success in battle is timing.
1) How are you going to coordinate such an attack, when the two forces you seek to bring together start so far apart? They must both hit ar or about the same time.
2) Why, or better yet how, are you going to position two Gatling Guns on Calhoun Hill, without forces to support them, and protect the guns from being overrun? I understand why you would place them there. The question is how, what forces you have to devote to their protection, and how many you so task for that purpose?
Beth: The best choice for a messenger would have been and officer or senior NCO. Benteen needed to know both what to do, AND also needed a complete picture of what was going on up front. Martini was not the man to do that.
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Post by yanmacca on May 31, 2021 19:12:37 GMT
Well Chuck, the planning should be down to the commanding officers, I guess that timing this to the minute would be impossible, so a date must be kept to like noon 27th, but seeing that no one was even bothered to work out a plan together, this idea should be threw in the waste paper bin. If Terry wanted the 7th to add to any attack plan, he should have not left Custer off the leash, but what if he held back and found the exact location of the village and its size, would Terry conjour up a battle plan involving himself, Gibbon and Custer?
The Gatlings guns was only me thinking of a way to use them, sort of an after thought with no real idea of how they could even get them in place without being seen, so I wasn't really being serious about them.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2021 20:27:18 GMT
A good place for Gatling Guns would have been at Ford A to cover Reno as he moved forward. But then, they are left unsupported, so it is better for them not to be there.
Even with radios and other stuff today, timing to the minute is very hard. Standard is +/- one minute for most things.
There I was, the company in company on line of wedges, 500 meters apart in a series of parallel draws, plodding forward at 20 mph. The BN CDR, sitting at the LD calls me up and says Assassin this is Ranger. WHERE ARE YOU. WHY AREN'T YOU LDing?. I replied, "LD is 0642, (It was 0641.) Assassin is 60 seconds out." And then we turned left into column of wedges and uncovered. Mech Platoon in Front on one ridge, me right behind them, my tank platoon on the next ridge back and a little higher, and my other mech platoon on the third ridge with the XO behind still higher. He saws it happen and said, "Assassin. VERY NICE! Well done."
some days things just go your way. Sometimes they don't.
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Post by quincannon on May 31, 2021 22:15:35 GMT
Ian, you presented one of maybe two correct tactical solutions, with your first post of the day. Correct in concept, and the ability to execute though are two different things. You have all the bases covered, hit from the south, and the north at the same time, and catch the leakers with the Gatlings as they attempt to flee eastward. Perfect plan, that will get you a decisive victory, as opposed to just a tactical win.
Could it be done? I think so, but you would have to coordinate that plan in fine detail, well beforehand. or have Terry put all his eggs in one basket, move the Montana and Dakota columns together, then maneuver them apart in the last twenty four hours. All of this is doable, but you must also provide for a reconnaissance force to locate the Indians specifically and keep you updated on what they are doing, If you came up with such a scheme, then your going to have to have your recon force locate the villages by the 23rd and attack no later than dawn on the 26th.
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mac
Brigadier General
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Post by mac on Jun 1, 2021 10:25:35 GMT
Mike I like pretty much everything in your last long post.
In regard to the note to Benteen, I have discovered over the years that there are many who will find any reason to blame others for Custer's mistakes. Making silly readings of the note is one way to do this. They will not change. Your point about Benteen's horses is exactly right. When I was at the battlefield I listened to the ranger talk/performance. He made a point of the fact that when Benteen got the note he simply read it, pocketed it, and did not speed up. He emphasized the did not speed up; I just thought "you dummy, you do not realize that he was already traveling as fast as he could in the circumstances, some expert!" If you are going to study history you must make the effort to understand the times.
I am starting another thread, just to clean up the subject discussion, on why Custer did not cross at Ford D. Cheers
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