mac
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Post by mac on Jun 1, 2021 11:07:45 GMT
Important point from Mike's post. "He wrote the note and gave instruction to Martini to follow their trail back," follow their trail back. Cheers
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Post by rollingthunder on Jun 1, 2021 23:30:11 GMT
Didn’t Fonda and his survivors sell their lives dearly to buy time for Wayne? It looks like they lost their horses so that would leave them stranded, and rule out any Reno style breakout-charge back to “York Hill” It is still a classic pose though; View AttachmentWhat is John Wayne doing in that final scene?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2021 23:52:59 GMT
Fonda screwed up that whole thing. Fonda took Wayne’s horse and told him yo defend the trains.
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Post by rollingthunder on Jun 2, 2021 0:15:32 GMT
Fonda screwed up that whole thing. Fonda took Wayne’s horse and told him yo defend the trains. They are waiting for the final Apache attack. John Wayne is out with the packs at the moment. This is an outtake. That scene did not appear in the final version of the film. Did John Ford shoot another ending for the movie?
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Post by quincannon on Jun 2, 2021 1:44:34 GMT
Don't think that was an outtake RT, rather a publicity still, the kind they used to have in theaters along with the movie poster. I believe there is an identical picture at Gouldin's Trading Post in Monument Valley where Fort Apache was made. The whole top floor of the old trading post building is devoted to the films made in Monument Valley, and Ford made most of them.
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 2, 2021 8:52:53 GMT
I remember putting all our names to the characters in that shot, can't recall who was who now, but QC ended up as Wayne and Mac said he was the guy on the floor.
It was on the black board because Fred was Fonda I think. I can't remember who I was, but Steve, Tom, Dave, David and Dan were all included.
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Jun 2, 2021 12:48:43 GMT
Thank you again Chuck, regarding Tweed and Company. I would think it might very well indicate that his Company did not sit on their hands on Calhoun Hill and allow Henryville to fill up. Ian, you know of my friendship with Fred, but I will take some issue here with body placements, I will offer an educated opinion here, Custer's younger brother and his nephew were found in the Cemetery area, as was Tweed. By the way do you think Boyer's marker is located where his body was found? Mike, the best maps of the battlefield environs were between the ears of Boyer and Herendeen. Herendeen had been there two years before on an expedition, detailed in a recent book by French Maclean. Regards, Tom Tom, regarding maps. Yes. What really mystifies me is Custer sent Benteen out without any guides. How would he expect him to find his way back quickly or even recognize the LBH valley without one. So much for expecting rapid response/reinforcement from Benteen, although Benteen was probably the best guy for the job. Mike I think dealing with horse people and how you move about would make it easier than it seems. Reno Creek runs to the river. Every drainage before the river runs to Reno Creek. Benteen was given a direction of travel, crossing drainages at right angles. That is not a normal way to travel by horse. Either go high (which I have done in my truck or go down Reno Creek and then select which drainage to move up. I don't think it was by chance that Benteen moved on a line until he near the south fork of Reno Creek. It is a travel corridor used by Indians. Crazy Horse used to move to the Rosebud. Herendeen was there two years before in a battle with around 600 Indians. No one would ride the way Benteen did, so Herendeen could not tell Custer which ridge would be above SFRC. There were observations of a camp along Reno Creek, and they could flee up SFRC or move toward the Big Village. The angle given to Benteen puts him around 5 miles upstream SFRC. Gibson clears it and moves downstream to Reno Creek. It seems to me that Benteen was ordered to a line of bluffs and not to the LBH river. I believe Custer sent a messenger to tell him to continue. The destination could not be the river because it would not require the messenger to tell him to continue. I think ad infinitum covers what I experienced while riding it. It would be easier mentally to go until you hit the river rather than looking for a particular line of bluffs. Herendeen would know that the east side of SFRC was bluffed up and that you would have to be there to look into SFRC. If Benteen continued his line, he would end up approximately 10 miles upstream on the LBH. We know that because we have a map. Benteen might believe he might not ever hit the LBH. It seems to me valley hunting describes looking for SFRC better. River hunting would describe riding until you hit the LBH. Regards Steve
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Jun 2, 2021 12:58:06 GMT
Mike I like pretty much everything in your last long post.
In regard to the note to Benteen, I have discovered over the years that there are many who will find any reason to blame others for Custer's mistakes. Making silly readings of the note is one way to do this. They will not change. Your point about Benteen's horses is exactly right. When I was at the battlefield I listened to the ranger talk/performance. He made a point of the fact that when Benteen got the note he simply read it, pocketed it, and did not speed up. He emphasized the did not speed up; I just thought "you dummy, you do not realize that he was already traveling as fast as he could in the circumstances, some expert!" If you are going to study history you must make the effort to understand the times.
I am starting another thread, just to clean up the subject discussion, on why Custer did not cross at Ford D. Cheers
Mac Looking forward to that and sharing what Sioux, Cheyenne, and Arapaho told me in April. Even the Crow agree. Regards Steve
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Post by herosrest on Jun 2, 2021 15:05:47 GMT
Fonda screwed up that whole thing. Fonda took Wayne’s horse and told him yo defend the trains. That is pure Washita!
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Post by herosrest on Jun 2, 2021 15:08:05 GMT
Beth: The essence of military professionalism is to go about whatever you are doing in a calm, deliberate, completely focused on the task manner under any and all circumstances. That is particularly true when you find yourself in the most trying of circumstances, when everything around you is GOING TO HELL IN A HAND BASKET. Your soldiers are always watching you. They take their lead from your demeanor. You being calm and going about your business, has a calming effect on them, a feeling of it really is not as bad as it seems, must be, look at the old man. To do otherwise means that you have chosen the wrong career, and you would be much better off being a book keeper, or town barber. A case in point link Keep calm, please.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 2, 2021 15:14:20 GMT
HR: I get you point, but then again no one ever said Marcus Reno was the poster boy for professionalism either.
Each of us is beset by imperfection. I would like to think I could have done a better job in breaking out from the timber, but if I am honest with myself I would know that might not be the case, and when all was said and done, what I would have done might be much worse. It has come to my attention over the years that while everyone, or nearly so, is critical of Reno's performance, NONE, if they are honest with themselves can say they could have done it better, without making a damned fool of themselves in the eyes of rational people who know better.
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Post by Beth on Jun 3, 2021 17:11:13 GMT
Mike I like pretty much everything in your last long post.
In regard to the note to Benteen, I have discovered over the years that there are many who will find any reason to blame others for Custer's mistakes. Making silly readings of the note is one way to do this. They will not change. Your point about Benteen's horses is exactly right. When I was at the battlefield I listened to the ranger talk/performance. He made a point of the fact that when Benteen got the note he simply read it, pocketed it, and did not speed up. He emphasized the did not speed up; I just thought "you dummy, you do not realize that he was already traveling as fast as he could in the circumstances, some expert!" If you are going to study history you must make the effort to understand the times.
I am starting another thread, just to clean up the subject discussion, on why Custer did not cross at Ford D. Cheers
Mac Looking forward to that and sharing what Sioux, Cheyenne, and Arapaho told me in April. Even the Crow agree. Regards Steve When??? If you have put up a date, I have missed it and I am really looking forward to the information.
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Jun 4, 2021 16:47:32 GMT
Beth
I think I have posted in regards to events near the house foundation.
Regards
Steve
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Jun 4, 2021 16:58:31 GMT
I think Custer was moving to contact in the Ford D area. I think he didn't make it. There was contact to north east with a Cheyenne hunting party (American Horse) along with observations of Cheyennes moving toward him from the west and south of the area where the cement foundation is located.
So how they would have have approached Ford Ds with all 5 companies was not allowed to unfold. To have sufficient force to stop the plan it would also mean some fast reactions. I believe one of the available choices was a retrograde and that is consistent with what we see on the battlefield.
Regards
Steve
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 4, 2021 20:05:12 GMT
We could have a situation in which not every company made it to the valley floor, there is two main drainages, so if they only used one [like JSIT says), they they could have been nose to tail, which means the lead companies would be taking fire and even being deflected before the tail end Charlie made it down.
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