Custer Moves to Ford D with Five Companies Part B

[azranger]

Chuck

Artifacts from soldiers are found north of LSH, but the only body was Kellogg's. It doesn't take a top-notch investigator to form an opinion that soldiers moved from those northern locations to the south, where bodies were found. For years the active artifact mapping and protection was within the NPS boundary, and the studies were on that land. With additional discoveries noted to the north of LSH, it formed the basis of a north-to-south movement. 

This opinion forming seems too obvious; if the soldiers were alive north of LSH and found dead south of the northern locations, there had to be moving from north to south. That Gordie formed that opinion seems logical, given the artifacts discovered.


Regards

Steve 

[quincannon]

You are preaching to the choir Steve. Everything, as far as I know, that Harper laid out is valid, in my opinion. The fact though is that it is an opinion, obviously Harper's, your's, and mine. Others differ, and as such we cannot in good conscience present those opinions as cold, hard, undisputed fact. People like Wagner, and Montrose, who are no shrinking violets when it comes to tactics (although I do not often agree with them) dispute some or all of this, and stick to the more conventional flow of the Custer portion of the battle. So as long as there is the specter of dispute, what we may strongly believe, is still opinion. So my earlier statement that you learned Harper's opinion still stands in my estimation. In this particular case you reinforced Harper's opinion with your own investigation, and that is to your credit. 

Part of this, I believe, is poor messaging on Harper's part. Even the guy, whose name escapes me, did not buy what Harper was selling, as evidenced by the last chapter written by him in Harper's own book. Harper's north-south battle flow is the misnamed miscreant in this instance. There was no north-south battle flow. The flow of battle was north, and only northward. What we believe is not really a southward flow, but rather a bounce back, that which occurs when forward motion hits something solid and unmovable. That is a natural effect, repeated in battles throughout history. It was a passing of the initiative from one side to the other, and not a change in direction of battle flow. In this particular case, that solid object, caused a begining of a disintegration of command and control, which got completely out of hand, as the battle got to its mid and final stages. Disintegration is not flow. It is disintegration.

One example from history to illustrate the point: Longstreet's attack on the third day of Gettysburg was west to east. That attack hit a stone wall, litterally, which caused a disintegration in command and control of three divisions, at nearly the same time. You cannot then say then that the battle flow was east to west. That would not be an accurate presentation of the facts. Rather it was a retrograde caused by hitting something solid, which could not be overcome. 

What ever it was that occurred on the Little Big Horn that Sunday afternoon in the northern sector must have been catistrophic to cause such a rapid collapse. Even then, had it not been for the timely arrival of those coming from the Reno fight, Custer may have been able to withdraw in disorder, but withdraw none the less. We just don't know all the facts, and there is scant chance that those facts will ever be learned.

So, had Harper stated his views in this manner, rather than using the north-south mantra, I believe his views would be more unversally understood, thus messaging.

[mac]

Oct 25, 2022 15:23:10 GMT azranger said:

Chuck

Artifacts from soldiers are found north of LSH, but the only body was Kellogg's. It doesn't take a top-notch investigator to form an opinion that soldiers moved from those northern locations to the south, where bodies were found. For years the active artifact mapping and protection was within the NPS boundary, and the studies were on that land. With additional discoveries noted to the north of LSH, it formed the basis of a north-to-south movement. 

This opinion forming seems too obvious; if the soldiers were alive north of LSH and found dead south of the northern locations, there had to be moving from north to south. That Gordie formed that opinion seems logical, given the artifacts discovered.


Regards

Steve 

I agree Steve that the logic here is unarguable. A classic case of new evidence creating a new hypothesis (scientific method). Note the word hypothesis which I feel is better than opinion; one is a proposal and the other is held.

In terms of messaging I now use the expression "retreat from the Northern valley", since I feel that more clearly describes how I see the troop movements.

In terms of logic we have Indian accounts of the soldiers losing horses during the fighting in the North. We have Indian accounts of soldiers on foot forced to run along what can only be Battle Ridge Extension. Company F are mainly found dead on and around Last Stand Hill. It seems logical to propose the hypothesis that they were fixed where they fell due to losing their mounts.

I will be pursuing this soon in a new thread that is working through my mind recently.

I am sad that I never got to talk to Mr Harper.

Cheers

[quincannon]

Logic Mac. Logic is on the side of Harper, and Steve, as well as anyone else who believes, as you and I do, that the northern most portion of the northern fight was not conducted as portrayed in what I refer to as the conventional, widely accepted theory.

Logic and our own eyes,  tell us that that area is very large, two large for only a two company action. It is filled with artifactual evidence, not just in one or two places, but scattered about the entire area. Evidence also tells us that this place is not the place(s) where the majority of those five companies died. Logic then takes over in that artifact evidence is widespread north of those final places so that sometime earlier in the battle those five companies, or at least three or four were in the northern area fighting and they withdrew to the place where those companies met their ultimate fates.

I will tell you bluntly what logic tells me though. Despite anyone's testimony, from Red Hawk to Chief Thunderthud, I would, and once did, buy into the conventional scenario, and be your chief opponent were it not for viewing the vastness of that northern area for myself, and knowing something happened there. In short it is just too damned big an area for only two small companies to have fought over. Had it been only two companies, and had they not even reached the flats around the ford, but had a limit of advance only to the old park entrance road, near which Kellogg's body was found, they would have been fixed and destroyed in that area, not further south at LSH or Deep Ravine. Too many Indians, that were mobile, and too few troopers whose mobility factor is in question.

From that point I think it is fruitless for anyone to try to piece together exactly who flanked whom, and who was first to withdraw, collapse or go to the latrine. The broad outline is there to see, but we do not have enough data, to say anything, or offer an opinion, except in those terms. The best that can be done then is look at the overall picture. They went, they were stopped, they withdrew, they died.

Harper's views I believe, are pretty much in line with all of the above. They are better than most, in my estimation. They rattle cages, and are unpopular in many circles, but they make more sense than not. Harper's main enemy were his own words "north-south battle flow" Had he described what he hypothisizes happened with another term, like your own "retreat from the northern valley" or anything near that, I do not believe we would be having this present discussion.