|
Post by quincannon on Apr 2, 2021 15:51:37 GMT
Not sure any of these folks know what a "SPITZ" is, and I won't tell if you won't. Individual research is good for the soul.
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Apr 2, 2021 19:19:02 GMT
Surly you don't expect us to use our valuble time on good Friday to search for a military move called "SPITZ" Chuck. C'mon this why we have you military guys here, to tell us these things.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Apr 2, 2021 21:31:55 GMT
It's so secret Ian, that if I told you I would have to then kill you. You wouldn't want that now would you, especially because I have those Italari Panzer III's arriving tomorrow, and I know you are anxious to learn about how they could be used in your various diorama projects.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2021 0:39:35 GMT
You have to discover the answer for yourself to become a true member of the club. Regardless of what Friday it is.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Apr 3, 2021 0:58:00 GMT
Of course Mike, even if Ian learns it the old fashioned way, he still would have to learn the secret handshake, not to mention the code word access to the Forbidden Chamber of Karl.
Good Friday is a proper time for Ian to repent the sin of even asking the meaning of one of those closely guarded secrets that only the anointed can be privy to having knowledge of. It's nearly as bad, although not quite, as asking for the recipe for the secret sauce on a Big Mac.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2021 2:04:53 GMT
I used to be able to say, in the original German, "Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickle on a sesame-seed bun" and then order ein Bier to got with my Pomme Frits...
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Apr 3, 2021 2:27:51 GMT
I used to be able to say it in the original English, until I found Jersey Mike's sub shop, and all of a sudden just like at Yorktown, a band somewhere in the clouds far above me started playing "The World Turned Upside Down"
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2021 2:34:29 GMT
There is another place I have to go to. Yorktown. I've had to cancel two trips there as well. Fortunately, I have been to Cowpens three times. I can feel the movement of troops and visualize them in my mind's eye as we fight one of, if not the decisive battles of the Revolution against the repression of the British empire. The fact that I could be stirring up gunpowder molecules and inhaling them as I walk the field, almost hearing the crack of musket and cannon, delivers shivers up and down my spine.
|
|
mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
|
Post by mac on Apr 3, 2021 12:20:43 GMT
mac I wasn't focused on what he might have done after he crossed the river, I'm focused on why he ended up the way he did, all strung out over Battle Ridge to LSH to the draws. Once he decided to head back to what became the National Battlefield area, why didn't he huddle up and mass? He didn't have enough troops to defend the way quincannon favors by controlling BRE and Battle Ridge, among other areas. Maybe he was just focused on being offensive or perhaps he was attempting to execute a breakout? Oh well. There is more to learn and speculation is not fruitful in this matter. Fair enough Mike. I just feel Custer did not dawdle in making the decision to retire from the river.
In considering why Companies ended positioned as they were it is good to start with E and F. Indian accounts tell us that Company E left the river and moved up to Cemetery Ridge (leading their horses) and that they then held that position to the end. I do mean the end, as it was the last organized point of resistance.
When LSH fell the warriors charged up from the eastern side (probably C,I,L were pretty much cooked by this time) and as they did so some men (probably around 15) who were still mobile ran away down to Cemetery Ridge and Company E, as Company E were still fighting. Ultimately,(very soon after) Company E's position was over run and some men ran down the SSL to Deep Ravine. This is how one Company F man was identified down there, but the rest were mainly Company E. Given those accounts it is apparent to me that E and F were not together in the valley at Ford D.
The accounts also say that when E stopped on Cemetery, another Company that was mounted simply rode over the hill. I believe this to be Company L, since that would make them the first to leave. Hence I suggest if we are to pair E to another Company then it is perhaps L.
The maneuvering of the other groups would then leave Company F out on BRE.
Company C must be the second to leave if we are to believe Gall's account (and I do). Last to leave is Keogh and Company I, and given how far they got things were falling apart pretty quickly by this time. Cheers
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Apr 3, 2021 13:07:07 GMT
You have to discover the answer for yourself to become a true member of the club. Regardless of what Friday it is. Thanks Mike, you are all heart!
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Apr 3, 2021 13:09:03 GMT
It's so secret Ian, that if I told you I would have to then kill you. You wouldn't want that now would you, especially because I have those Italari Panzer III's arriving tomorrow, and I know you are anxious to learn about how they could be used in your various diorama projects. Thanks Chuck, Ishould have guessed it was a German term, the wordage gives it away.
What ausf are your Mk. IIIs?
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Apr 3, 2021 13:14:33 GMT
There is another place I have to go to. Yorktown. I've had to cancel two trips there as well. Fortunately, I have been to Cowpens three times. I can feel the movement of troops and visualize them in my mind's eye as we fight one of, if not the decisive battles of the Revolution against the repression of the British empire. The fact that I could be stirring up gunpowder molecules and inhaling them as I walk the field, almost hearing the crack of musket and cannon, delivers shivers up and down my spine. Yes, I always wanted to go to Fort Ticonderoga!!!! or maybe Hubbardton or Fort Ann.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Apr 3, 2021 14:43:36 GMT
Ian ausf J
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2021 18:09:47 GMT
mac I wasn't focused on what he might have done after he crossed the river, I'm focused on why he ended up the way he did, all strung out over Battle Ridge to LSH to the draws. Once he decided to head back to what became the National Battlefield area, why didn't he huddle up and mass? He didn't have enough troops to defend the way quincannon favors by controlling BRE and Battle Ridge, among other areas. Maybe he was just focused on being offensive or perhaps he was attempting to execute a breakout? Oh well. There is more to learn and speculation is not fruitful in this matter. Fair enough Mike. I just feel Custer did not dawdle in making the decision to retire from the river.
In considering why Companies ended positioned as they were it is good to start with E and F. Indian accounts tell us that Company E left the river and moved up to Cemetery Ridge (leading their horses) and that they then held that position to the end. I do mean the end, as it was the last organized point of resistance.
When LSH fell the warriors charged up from the eastern side (probably C,I,L were pretty much cooked by this time) and as they did so some men (probably around 15) who were still mobile ran away down to Cemetery Ridge and Company E, as Company E were still fighting. Ultimately,(very soon after) Company E's position was over run and some men ran down the SSL to Deep Ravine. This is how one Company F man was identified down there, but the rest were mainly Company E. Given those accounts it is apparent to me that E and F were not together in the valley at Ford D.
The accounts also say that when E stopped on Cemetery, another Company that was mounted simply rode over the hill. I believe this to be Company L, since that would make them the first to leave. Hence I suggest if we are to pair E to another Company then it is perhaps L.
The maneuvering of the other groups would then leave Company F out on BRE.
Company C must be the second to leave if we are to believe Gall's account (and I do). Last to leave is Keogh and Company I, and given how far they got things were falling apart pretty quickly by this time. Cheers
I have several problems understanding your scenario here. I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm saying I just don't get it. You say that E Company withdrew from its position by the river and led its horses uphill to cemetary ridge, apparently without a fight. Where did they start from? How long do you think that walk took? To frame the discussion, lets consult the US Army Expert Infantryman's Badge Test for a 12 mile road march. It states that a soldier with his normal equipment (weapon, ammunition, water, etc.) plus a 35 pound rucksack load must be able to complete the course in 3 hours. So 4 mph or about 6.5 kph They follow a marked route which provides ease of movement, consistent terrain features, and no obstructions along the route that require the solider to maneuver around and it should be similar to terrain the soldiers have been training on. If there is a turn around point, it should be located in a place such that the soldiers don't obstruct each other as they turn around. Many soldiers run the course. No one I knew credited the infantry to be able to move at this rate cross country. The speed we almost always used was 2.5mph or about 4kph. I will accept whatever speed QC or AZ say. On the below map each grid square marked by the blue line is 1km. Each hex is about 250m. Let's assume E CO starts in hex 0505 (but I will accept any starting point you select) and moves along the path 0605-0704-0805-0904-1005 which is 1.25km. The time it would take for them arrive is probably, at best, between and 11 and 18 minutes, assuming they are not molested and don't have to fight their way back. Next, another company, likely L, rode through them as they arrived on Cemetery Ridge, and on down to Calhoun Hill (HEX 1507). Where do you think they came from? If E CO was able to get into position unopposed, why would L rush straight through them and move to Calhoun Hill? Let's assume L gallops at 11mph or almost 18 kph, so they can fairly easily go from E CO to Calhoun Hill, if unopposed, could easily do that in around 4 minutes. Where do you think each company is when they start to fall back and where do they end up. Tell me the Hex numbers and I will move them there and repost, or I can send you the powerpoint with the map and units and you can place them as you see fit.
|
|
azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
Posts: 1,824
|
Post by azranger on Apr 3, 2021 19:35:32 GMT
You surprise me Chuck I didn't know you had crossed rivers horseback.
|
|