Ground Forces Organizational Structure Past And Present

[quincannon]

This thread is created for the express purpose of discussing the organization of ground forces of every nation from earliest times to the present day, and if one cares to peek into the subject's future, that's OK too.

[Deleted]

One of my doctrinal tenants is: Infantry. Don't go into towns or woods without them. In my view, ground combat companies should be organized as tank company teams of two tank and two mech platoons. If cost's prohibit that, then tank companies are two tank and 1 mech and mech companies are 1 tank and 2 mech. Each type should have their own self propelled mortars. An Infantry Battalion might need an additional company that is all mech (no armor) to be used for air assaults across rivers (since most infantry combat vehicles are not swimmable). Though it may be better to have a motorized battalion at division (or maybe in a seperate infantry or armor brigade) for this purpose instead.

[quincannon]

Ian: The PSC A9 Cruiser is an excellent kit. Highly recommended. If you don't have one already get one, you will be pleased.

Mike: I agree that a 2X1 or 1X2 is the right combination. Three companies per battalion and mix these companies on the same basis 2X1 or 1/2. THe ones we have now are going to cross attach anyway, might as well do that cross attachment by MTO&E rather than on the spot.

We differ a little, I think, in how we see Infantry in those combined arms battalions. I would have them do nothing but foster the mobility of the parent organization. I don't want them slugging it out (for an extended period of time) in some village that could be best handled by follow on forces. What we do need in a new carrier, that carries a full squad plus crew. Something like the M113 but updated. Why, Oh Why, did we wish to reinvent the doctrinal wheel with the Bradley, which is neither fish nor fowl but stinks as bead either way?

Ian, I almost forgot to add that the A9 has a terminal case of double ugly. What I was surprised about is the size of the tank. I was always under the impression tat the A9 was rather small, but to my surprise it is about the same size as a Cromwell or Crusader.

[Deleted]

Jun 16, 2021 16:58:09 GMT quincannon said:

Mike: I agree that a 2X1 or 1X2 is the right combination. Three companies per battalion and mix these companies on the same basis 2X1 or 1/2. THe ones we have now are going to cross attach anyway, might as well do that cross attachment by MTO&E rather than on the spot.

We differ a little, I think, in how we see Infantry in those combined arms battalions. I would have them do nothing but foster the mobility of the parent organization. I don't want them slugging it out (for an extended period of time) in some village that could be best handled by follow on forces. What we do need in a new carrier, that carries a full squad plus crew. Something like the M113 but updated. Why, Oh Why, did we wish to reinvent the doctrinal wheel with the Bradley, which is neither fish nor fowl but stinks as bead either way?

I really prefer the 4 company battalion.

We went with the BFV because it was all about killing tanks after 1967/73 so it was ATGMs and Neutron Bombs to stop the Soviet Hordes.  Not needed today.

Today though, we have swung too much to protection (MRAPS, double V-Hull Strykers, and active armor).  We forget we fight on external lines of communication.  Add an extra roadwheel to the M113, improve the power pack and track (Kevlar threads in the track with advanced alloys might do wonders), slope the side armor so the infantry faces out rather than in, maybe put a remote 30mm turret on top, and we're done.  The fuel tanks are already external.  That silly OMPV is too big and doesn't hold any more people.

The IBCT and SBCT more armor than 1 company of light tanks.  I would replace the cavalry squadron with a "reconnaissance - tank battalion".  A Troop is the Brigade Reconnaissance Company.  B, C, and D CO are combined arms companies organized with 2M and 1T platoons.  The Mech riding in Stryker's, I suppose.  (Maybe in the ABCT, do away with the cavalry squadron entirely, give it a separate cavalry troop, and reform the divisional cavalry squadron.)

The Cavalry troop would have 3 platoons organized like the Cavalry Platoon I commanded.  1 Stryker for the PL, 2 scout sections of 2 Strykers each, 4 tanks, a mortar carrier, and maybe an infantry squad.  For all the troops, there is a Stryker for the CO, XO, and 1SG.

Perhaps Heavy Divisions should have two ABCT and one SBCT to give them a significant infantry component and "Light" Divisions should have two IBCT and one SBCT.   Then Independent ARNG ABCT, SBCT, and IBCTs could be attached as needed for special missions.

This piddling may not be the right thing for the 21st century given external lines of communications and the need to fight in the Pacific.  Perhaps, as I've said elsewhere, reform Coastal Artillery into Air, Missile, Long range artillery fires, and anti-ship missiles stationed from the Aleutians, Midway, Guam, down to Australia and figure out what sort of ground combat arms forces we need that can in the Pacific. I wish I was smarter.  Maybe suborbital troop transports.

fantastic-plastic.com/douglas-ithacus-sub-orbital-troop-carrier-by-fantastic-plastic.html

blog.firedrake.org/archive/2015/12/Ithacus_and_SUSTAIN.html

Attachments:

[quincannon]

If I may, I will nominate PRIVATE ROGER YOUNG as the name for the first suborbital troop transport, Heinlein be damned.

We actually did that two heavy and a Stryker brigade in the same division, with 1st Armored, that is until some guy weaned at Knox, had a hissy fit, and sent all the Strykers here, while they reequipped that brigade as a heavy. We don't fight as divisions anymore. We deploy and fight as brigades, and except for the division headquarters that is tapped for their turn to deploy and control all those brigades sent into theater from God knows where, the division is nothing more than a picture of a patch on the front gate of Fort Swampy. Don't think that is such a bad idea, but what I also think is that like type brigades should be assigned to certain divisions. Put all your heavies at Bliss and Hood, and if that ends up meaning those two divisions have four or five brigades each stationed at those two locations, that's OK. Same with lights and Strykers, and so on. What they become is a community of like technology and technique.

I kind of like that Coast Artillery idea, the only problem is all the places suitable for deploying that type stuff have all closed long ago, What you would have to do is take back a lot of parks and chase the sun bathers off the beach at Fort Miles, Delaware. Theoretically though it is a great idea.

The best ground combat arms for the Pacific, is a PX snack bar truck. Anything more and some idiot is going to think about using it in a ground war on the Asian mainland. I read just a few moments ago that Chubby Cheeks is drinking himself to death, and China is making too much money to want to go to war. Their economy would collapse in three weeks, and they would have to be more concerned about control of their own population. Non-starter if they have any sense at all.

I thought about four company battalions. Don't think you could sell them in today's environment. Take what you can get and leave the pie in the sky theory to MacGregor the Puma Pimp

[Deleted]

I pretty much agree with all your above.

I Corps (FT Lewis)
14 CR
2 ID (AK)
7 ID
25 ID
II Corps (ARNG FT IRWIN)
116 ACR
34 ID
35 ID
36 ID
40 ID
III Corps (FT Hood)
3 ACR
4 ID (HVY)
1 CD (HVY)
1 AD (HVY)

V Corps (FT KNOX)
​11 ACR
​1 ID (HVY)
​3 ID (HVY)
VII Corps (ARNG) (FT Indiantown Gap)
278 ACR
28 ID
29 ID
38 ID
42 ID
VXIII Corps (FT Bragg)
2 CR
10 ID
82 ID
101 ID

[yanmacca]

I like those early cruisers Chuck, trouble with them was when they finally sorted out all the engine problems, they were obsolete, the Cromwell was the way forward, but I can't forget that men fought and died in those A9s, A10s & A13s from 1940 to 1941 and even 1942.

Brigades are the way forward, divisions should really be based on hone soil and brigades should be organic to the division.

I don't know what the US Army are thinking structurally with their brigades, are they building them like a mini division, with four battalions, armour, infantry, engineer & artillery?

I always revert back to the Germans when structuring units as we always had the idea that "make do" with what you have, rather than "let's have the best".

A panzer division had five major component's, armour, infantry, reconnaissance, engineer and artillery, so let's forget about the artillery for now and concentrated in the other four, the way these were structured was that all four could be used as combat units and armed in such a way that gives them punch.

The panzer reconnaissance battalion was fully armoured and armed with plenty if support weapons, the panzer engineer battalion contained a full armoured company and two motorised companies and had support weapons too.

What I nay do is find out how the panzerjager and StuG battalions were used in relation to panzer and grenadiers, did the tanks operate independently and the StuGs and other SPGs support the armoured infantry.

[yanmacca]

Chuck, I made the decision to change my PSC Pz Mark IVs from short barrelled to long, I removed the 75mm L/24s and fitted them all with the longer 75mm L/48.
I drilled out the barrels too and added the skirt armour, just got to add camo now with green and red.

The next batch of PSC I am going to buy is the panthers, then tigers.

[Deleted]

The Army wants all brigades to have a similar structure, hence HQ CO, CAV SQDN (of sorts), 3 maneuver battalions, artillery battalion, engineer battalion with 2 engineer companies, 1 intelligence company, a signal company, and a service support battalion. When I was a BDE S-4, my brigade was composed of the HQ CO, two tank, and 1 mech battalion. Everything else was supplied by other units of the division and would be task organized to us. When we went to the National Training Center, we left behind one battalion, but received a light infantry battalion and a California National Guard Armor=Infantry Task Force, in addition to 2 artillery battalions, the Engineer Battalion, a Forward Support Battalion, 1/3rd of the division support battalion, an air defense battery, a signal company, an MI company, a Corps Support Battalion, a Light-Medium Truck Company, and an MP Platoon and a Long Range Recon Detachment if I remember correctly. In addition, the Aviation Brigade deployed with us, but was not commanded by us, with its HQ, the attack aviation battalion, and a lift battalion. Because we were also a heavy-light rotation, we also received a Chinook (medium) helicopter company. I was responsible for all the Service Support for both organizations. This rotation was the largest one until that time (1992) and may still be the largest although I was able to observe one which had a full Armor BCT reinfored with a Styrker battallion which may have been larger.

One reason the Army reorganized into these modular units is to improve their ability to work together. Even though the brigade habitually received the same supporting elements from the Division, they did not routinely work together. This made them more self sufficient, especially considering the dispersion found in COIN wwarfare and improvers their training. It has gone through several iterations, first having 1 cavalry and 2 combined arms battalions of 3 companies (1 Mech/2 Tank companies or 2 Mech/1 Tank company), later going to four comopanies (2 and 2) and losing the engineer company, which went to an Engineer battalion (2 engineer, 1 MI, and 1 Signal coompanies), and then back to three company battalions. I predict that soon they will return to a pure configuration.

Prior to this, we did not have Strykers, and there were Mechanized Divisions, Infantry Division, Light Infantry Divisions, Airborne Infantry Divisions, and Airborne Infantry Divisions, and separate brigades (which were organized similarly to the modular brigades of today). A division consisted of 10 battalions. Mechanized Infantry Divisions typically consisted of 6 mech and 4 tank battalions while armor divisions has 6 tank and 4 mech divisions. An Infantry division might have 8 Infantry battalions, 1 mechanized infantry battalion, and 1 tank battalion. Light Infantry Divisions had 9 battalions (as I recall) and were much smaller than the others. The Airborne Infantry divisors has 9 infantry battalions and 1 armor battalion. The Air Mobile Division had 9 battalions.

Theoretically, the brigades only had their HQ CO as organic and battalions could be mixed and matched depending on the mission. In practice (at least in my experience) this seldom happened, except for the brigade receiving their direct support units as mentioned above. For Desert Storm, however, brigades exchanged V Corps sent its armor division to VII Corps and received a mech division. The armor divisions exchanged brigades with infantry brigades to ensure the two Corps sectors had a balanced force for the defense of Europe.

The 1st Infantry Division at the time had two brigades and with one in Germany. It was on the verge of being inactivated and was sent to Desert Storm to help run the port. Upon arrival in Saudi Arabia, we received the Forward Brigade of the 2nd Armor Division, at that point we had nine battalions 6 tank and 3 mech and we tried to get another mech battalion from the 3rd Brigade, but they had no equipment. The 2 AD cross attached 1 Brigade to the 1st Cavalry Division (which only had two brigades at the time) and then it was further cross attached to the Marines. The 24th Infantry was supposed to get the 48 separate infantry brigade (mech) from the GA National Guard, but instead got the 197th Infantry Brigade from Fort Benning. There were probably a bunch of other attachments and detachments made as well.

VII Corps was probably selected because it was inactivating, and III Corps was terribly disappointed it did not go. When the deployment was announced, the 1st ID staff and subordinate HQ were at Fort Hood together with the 1CD, 1AD, 3ACR, and 4ID in a Command Post Exercise and they were terribly dissappointed.

The reorganization also did away with the Division Artillery Organization, but it has been added back and I expect eventually the artillery battalions will return to it. The "division" now only consists of the Headquarters Battalion and everything else is attached from elsewhere. It may still have an MP company. The division commander has no organic reconnaissance capability (each brigade has a cavalry squadron), no Service Support Battalion - it gets an attached Sustainment Brigade, and no organic artillery - it gets an attached Field Artillery Brigade when needed, so the Division Commander cannot easily weight a main effort or form a reserve. The division may or may not deploy with its aviation brigade or it may get another. National Guard do not have the same type aviation brigade regular army divisions do.

There are also complaints it is too hard for the Brigades to train their smaller units in this configuration so there is probably intense lobbying to go back to pure organizations.

------

Roger was the commander of a unit named Roger's Rangers. His Journals have been published; but the Rngers are considered the parent of the Army Rangers and Special Forces units, and his principles are still used today.



en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogers%27_Rangers

Robert Rogers Journals


www.rogersrangers.org/rules/index.html

[quincannon]

Well Ian about six months ago I asked my friends at Hobby Town if they had seen the new tool Academy Panzer III (Tropical) in 1/35 scale. They said no, but they would order one for me. Six months later I had all but forgotten about the conversation, thinking that they had not written it down and forgot to order the item. Just as well thought I, in that, in the meantime I have concentrated on 1/56 and 1/72 scale stuff, with the notable exception of the Tamiya Cromwell, which I just love by the way. Well on Tuesday I got a call saying my Panzer III was in. I will pick it up tomorrow.

There is a fellow named Milan who has built one, and has a build log on Axis History Forum under the Models thread. You really ought to have a look at it. The kit is stunning even if you do not build in 1.35 scale, you will be impressed by what Academy has done, with my favorite (an I think your's) German tank.

If you want to know a little about Robert Rogers, and I know you love old movies Ian, check out Northwest Passage with Spencer Tracy and Robert Young. Northwest Passage is a very large book, and the movie only covers part of Book I, that tells the story of the raid on St Francis, which may very well be the classic raid of all time. My research tells me the the novel Northwest Passage, and what actually happened are virtually the same. Great historical fiction.

Mike: I think over time we may get back to pure organizations too. The BCT's regardless of type, are wasteful in terms of manpower utilization, and pure Medical, Maintenance, and Supply and Transport Battalions much more efficient in manpower terms. Division artillery is in my view essential for division operations, and artillery should be under central control at division level. The same with aviation. Maneuver commanders at brigade level should concentrate on maneuver, and this thing of this battalion belongs to me ought to be purged from the minds of Colonels, by making each trip to the National Training Center see their brigade headquarters control battalions from whomever the division commander tells them they will control. That is how it was done in the WWII armored division, and that was the idea behind ROAD in 1962, and it was a good idea.

I am not against there being a cavalry squadron for each brigade, as long as they are robust squadrons that can fight for information, AND as long as there is also a cavalry squadron, one that includes, good scout aircraft, built for that purpose, (in other words not Apaches), that are fairly cheap and that you are not afraid to lose, (and you will).at division level. Were getting into the arena of MacGregor the PP here I know, because these things I mention are not affordable at this juncture, unless we downsize by three division, in the active force and four in the ANG. That's not going to happen.

Ian: I just said the A9 was ugly, but when that's all you have available, you fight with ugly. It is a wonder any of those men who fought the A9 lived to tell the tale. There are at least 10 shot traps that I can identify on that beast, and I am not a tanker, so Mike can probably find ten more. It is however a very nice model, that is transitional, like our M3 Lee, and M3 Stuart, both of which are tied for the American double ugly prize.

All three of the A9's are now built. I built one in the desert version with side skirts and sprayed it with Army Painter Desert Yellow, then dry brushed a coat of desert yellow mixed with buff 50/50 to tone down the harshness of the desert yellow. Turned out nice. The other two are yet to be painted as Vallejo paints are still in short supply at Hobby Town and Gamer's Haven. They will be done in Russian Green which duplicates the color of British tanks in Europe. One is a standard A9, and the other is a close support version with the larger gun. 

[Deleted]

Jun 17, 2021 16:19:55 GMT quincannon said:

Mike: I think over time we may get back to pure organizations too. The BCT's regardless of type, are wasteful in terms of manpower utilization, and pure Medical, Maintenance, and Supply and Transport Battalions much more efficient in manpower terms. Division artillery is in my view essential for division operations, and artillery should be under central control at division level. The same with aviation. Maneuver commanders at brigade level should concentrate on maneuver, and this thing of this battalion belongs to me ought to be purged from the minds of Colonels, by making each trip to the National Training Center see their brigade headquarters control battalions from whomever the division commander tells them they will control. That is how it was done in the WWII armored division, and that was the idea behind ROAD in 1962, and it was a good idea.

I am not against there being a cavalry squadron for each brigade, as long as they are robust squadrons that can fight for information, AND as long as there is also a cavalry squadron, one that includes, good scout aircraft, built for that purpose, (in other words not Apaches), that are fairly cheap and that you are not afraid to lose, (and you will).at division level. Were getting into the arena of MacGregor the PP here I know, because these things I mention are not affordable at this juncture, unless we downsize by three division, in the active force and four in the ANG. That's not going to happen.

 

Chuck,

Perhaps we need a new thread for this. 

To my memory, the divisional and brigade support battalions (I went on active duty in 1976) were always multifunctional with the Brigade SB having an HHC, Supply and Transport Battalion, Maintenance Company, and Medical Company.  I remember them talking about FASTs (the team that was assembled from a Trans battalion, Maintenance Battalion, and Medical Battalion) but I don't remember it from my time as a BMO and S-4 in 1-34AR/1st BDE/1ID.  Just as I think a CAB is better than pure battalions (probably because I am a cavalryman), I think the multifunctional BSB is better than an organization that is put together every time you go to the field.

They have reestablished the DIVARTY, but it apparently does not control any battalions, not even an MLRS BN.  It does appear that a particularly FAB and a given Sustainment Brigade is aligned with a given Division, but that is probably more honored in the breach than the fact.  I don't think our artillery doctrine has changed in that artillery is never held in reserve, but in my view the Division Commander has little to weight the main effort with except maybe his presence in the Brigade CP. 

As you can imagine, I prefer the Division CG to have his own reconnaissance squadron, the Brigades to have a troop, and the battalions to have their Platoons.  For that matter, I think the Corps CG needs his own cavalry regiment as well.  I think we rely too much on electronic crap and not enough on eyeballs.  Of course, we haven't done well on intelligence matters in any event.  About the only time an ACR has done its job as designed was the 2 ACR in Desert Storm.  3 ACR was just treated as another maneuver brigade by the vaunted XVIII ABC staff.  The 14th Cav Group sort of it did it prior to the Battle of the Bulge, but was handicapped by only have one squadron on the line.  Not that it would have made much difference.  How the cavalry units are organized of course depends on if you want them to primarily scout or to be able to fight for information.

[yanmacca]

If you want a new thread and need posts moving, I can do that, but I think we already have a thread which deals with this topic.

[yanmacca]

I have "Northwest Passage" on DVD Chuck, that fight in the village is epic!

I have been down to Barry's this week and picked up some Vallejo paints, I have some US WW2 Infantry on the way and needed a colour for their M1941 Field Jacket, I have read reports that "Vallejo 988 English Uniform Khaki" would fit the bill, so here goes.
I also picked up a bottle of "Vallejo 819 Iraqi Sand", I am going to use this to paint my 8th Army Company circa 1941/42.

I don't know off the top of my head, but the A9 served in Europe in 1939/40, as you have noted, they are painted green, now I don't know if that green was a different shade to the colour used in 1944, so would Russian Green do both periods?

[yanmacca]

Ah, I thought there was already a thread on this topic; link

[quincannon]

Yes we do have a thread where this discussion ought to be. It is under General Discussion and the title of the thread is Ground Forces Organization Past and Present. Ian if you would move it there it would be appreciated by all three of us I think.

I think Russian Green fit the purpose for both. PSC has two different recommendations for European Greens on British vehicles and I don't think either one of them are satisfactory from what I have seen in the few color photos available. I think you will be pleased with the Russian Green.

Iraqi Sand is one of those Vallejo colors that is in very short supply here in the States. Even the mail order houses are out of stock in that color. As the Pandemic wanes all this will sort itself out, but it will be six more months at least.

You are right about the village fight, but also take note of the approach march and withdrawal. That journey going to St Francis was all the way across New York to the Saint Laurence River. Check it out on a map. Moving without being detected is what Light Infantry does best, and they can only do it because as Mike says, they willingly fight light and freeze at night. You do have to train to be miserable Ian, and the more misery you can endure, the better light fighter you are.