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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2021 19:44:44 GMT
I believe that helicopters, in their current form, are probably not really viable across the FLOT. Too vulnerable to all kinds of fire, especially tilt-rotors. Drones with advanced sensors may offer a partial solution if they can be quieted and their endurance extended, each helicopter could have several in a bay and dispatch them as needed. Perhaps they could even be recoverd. Some could be equipped with warheads allowing them to immolate themselves on a high value target.
For ground vehicles I am currently partial to either a telescoping arm with a sight on it or a tethered drone to reduce the possibility of the enemy hacking it. Although, I guess a free flight drone could be used as a sight and direct the weapon as to where to shoot if there is LOS between Drone-shooter-target.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 5, 2021 17:08:59 GMT
Mike: I was particularly impressed with 3rd AD in March 1945 as related in Bolger. Each of the three combat commands had two tank battalions and two Infantry battalions for a total of twelve maneuver battalions in the division. The three extra Infantry battalions were provided by first the 13th Infantry Regiment (8th ID) and then the 414th Infantry Regiment (104th ID) as I am sure you recall. WOW what power, double what the standard "light" armored division had. Rose nearly had an armored corps in those final days.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2021 17:51:02 GMT
Yeah, that was pretty interesting.
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Post by yanmacca on Jul 5, 2021 19:57:18 GMT
Would this be termed as "heavy" armoured division? I know the US Army formed three of these heavy divisions, which had two tank regiments of two tank battalions each, which incresed the tank strength by 30 percent. The reason they formed only three was because they were found to be top heavy in armour.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 5, 2021 21:17:52 GMT
That is not exactly correct Ian.
All of the Armored Divisions were organized initially as "heavy" armored divisions with two tank regiments of three battalions each. The third battalion in each regiment was a light tank battalion with M3's and later M5's, while the first two battalions in each regiment were medium tanks, at first M3' Lee's, replaced in 1942 by the M4. The divisions that activated in 42 and 43 had M4's from the outset.
The three "heavy" divisions that went into combat were the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd AD's. All of the rest reorganized under the 1944 tables as "light" armored divisions prior to entering combat.
The 1st and 2nd Armored Divisions saw combat in North Africa, then Sicily. After Sicily the 1st Armored Division went to Italy, while the 2nd went to England to prepare for D Day. The 3rd Armored Division by that time was already in England. The Army decided to leave the 2nd and 3rd as "heavy" because there was not time to get them reorganized before the invasion. Thus, they stayed heavy throughout the rest of the war. They were eventually reorganized in 1946-47 under all new tables of organization, which was pretty much like the "light" divisions, except they added a "heavy" tank battalion (M26's) and an additional armored Infantry battalion, giving the four tank battalions and four AIB's each. All of the other armored divisions were reorganized on paper to the 1946-47 model. I say on paper because all of the AD's by that time, except the 2nd were inactivated. The 3rd was also active at the time, but it was really a basic training division at Fort Knox, a means the Army had for a short time of keeping division colors alive, but not as combat divisions.
The 1st Armored Division in Italy remained a "Heavy" division for most of its combat time, but in the Fall of 1944 it was pulled out of the line and reorganized under the 1944 "light" armored division tables of organization. Just after the war it became, along with the 4th AD the basis for the United States Constabulary in Germany and Austria. A lot of Cavalry Groups were also converted to Constabulary as well.
The heavies were VERY heavy in armor having a two to one ratio over armored Infantry, and they were quite deficient. That is why it was pretty much routine for a heavy AD to pick up an Infantry Regiment, supported by a couple of Quartermaster truck companies (for mobility). The 3rd AD in the closing stages of the war had three combat commands and each combat command had two task forces, each task force consisting of a tank and an armored or motorized Infantry battalion. It was probably a "just right" organization for that period of time, but more than likely all too heavy for normal operations. The 3rd Armored had some very experienced people leading those task forces and combat commands. I doubt if any of the other divisions could have pulled off what the 3rd did. When you go big, experience counts, because big can be just as bad as too small with inexperienced leadership.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2021 21:26:49 GMT
The Armor Divisions which had Armor Regiments would be "Heavy" The Armor Divisions organized with Combat Commands would be "Light". They had 3 Armor, 3 Armored Infantry, and 3 Armored Artillery Battalions. In the Armor/Mechanized Divisions of the Army of the 70's, 80's, and part of the 90, Divisions were "Heavy" based on the mix of battalions. Mechanized Infantry Divisions were supposed to be 6 Mech and 4 Armor Armored Divisions would be 4 Mech and 6 Armor. In practice, not all divisions had 10 battalions, so they were frequently 5 of one and four of the other. BUT WAIT! THERE"S MORE! The first Infantry Division (Mechanized) had two brigades in the US and 1 in Germany. When I reported to it in Summer of 1980, there were 4 tank battalions and 4 mech battalions spread evenly across the two brigades, while the 1 ID (Forward) had 2 mech and 1 armor, plus pieces/parts of the division 'slice' for it. Later the 1 ID(M) west to 3 Mech and 4 tank and by the time I left, it was 2 Mech and 4 tank. The ID (F) stayed the same: 2 Mech and 1 tank. So in total it went from 6 Mech and 5 tank (Infantry Heavy, but larger than average) to 5 Mech and 5 tank (balanced) to 4 Mech and 5 Tank (Armor Heavy) (I was in the 1 ID (M) from 1980 - 1984 and the 1 ID (F) from 1984 - 1987) When I came back to the Division in 1990, the 1 ID (F) was being inactive, so we were at 2 Mech and 4 tank , but we were supposed to be rounded out by the 256 Separate Infantry Brigade (Mech) (SC ARNG) with 2 Mech and 1 Tank, so we would be Armor Heavy (4 Mech and 5 Tank).
When we deployed to Desert Storm, we did not take the 256 SIB (M), but picked up the 2 Armor Division (Forward) from Germany which was organized 1 Mech and 2 Tank, so for Desert Storm we were 3 Mech and 6 Tank, so very Armor Heavy. Since we were supposed to penetrate the Iraqi 26th Division, which was entrenched, so at the staff level, with some support from the CG as I recall, we thought we might need more infantry, so we tried to get the 4-16 Infantry (I think that was what they were) from the 1ID(F) which was playing stevedore's in the Port, but due to the fact that "we" needed the port help and they had deployed with little or no equipment, it was nixed.
Other divisions had different mixes of tanks. Some had 10 battalions and some had 9.
The 1st Cav Division deployed with 2 of its own brigades (like the 1 ID(M), I think it only had two at the time) and took a brigade from the 2 AD, but gave it to the USMC because they decided they needed the help and the M60A3 (which they said was more than adequate for their needs) and they whined about it. Now today, they think they don't need tanks, but when push comes to shove, I think they will whine again, and we (the Army) will have to provide them another brigade to plus them up, possibly to our own detrimate. (Whine is meant good naturedly. The Marines are fine soldiers, but they foolishly want to run up the beach with a rifle while I prefer(ed) to run down the beach with a surfboard and my women.)
Today, of cousre, all Heavy Brigades (ABCT) have 3 manuever battalions, two are tank heavy (2 tank companies 1 Mech company) and one is infantry heavy (2 Mech companies and 1 tank company). There is a cavalry Squadron of 3 (understrength and whimpy) Cav Troops plus a tank company.
Divisions are no longer typed, so any division could have Armored, Infantry, or Stryker (Target Vehicle) Brigades and have 9 Battalions and 3 cavalry squadrons (of various types).
There are (sadly) no more Cavalry Regiments, the 2nd and 3rd are really Stryker Brigades that pretend to be cav, but are really motorized infantry and the 11th ACR is an understrength Armored BCT (with some round out in the reserves) and the 278 ACR (TN ARNG) is an Armored BCT.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 5, 2021 22:39:49 GMT
The 256th Infantry Brigade (Sep) (Mech) was from Louisiana Mike. The 218th Infantry Brigade (Sep) (Mech) was from South Carolina.
These Roundout Brigades were the best thing that ever happened to the Army Guard. They got priority fill on equipment the same way the division they rounded out did. The first one, the 48th Infantry Brigade (Sep) was rounding out the 24th ID at the time, and for about two years they were the Guard's most modern brigade.
We did the same sort of "sneaky" with the 10th Mountain Division. I proposed that instead of taking an existing separate Infantry brigade to round it out, we carve a brigade out of the 42nd ID there in New York, and round the 10th out with that. My boss told me to forget it, and his boss concurred, so I put together some jibberish ideas that separated the round out from the parent division by some hundreds of miles, so they could not regularly train together, but stuck in the view graph slides for my proposal as well. I was briefing all of the generals concerned along with the Council of Colonels down in the tank, and presented the crap, then pulled mine up as the last part of the presentation. I thought my career had just gone to hell, when Bill Carpenter (the 10th's prospective CG) stood up and said that is what I want. Then Gary Luck said looks good to him too, Best OER I ever received. The end result was a brigade from the lowest priority division we had at the time, the 42nd, got more new shit than they ever dreamed of, not to mention we got authorization for the Guard's Mountain School at Fort Ethan Allen, Vermont at the same time. In those days, all you had to do is say LIGHT to John Wickham, and it was like magic, the hills were lowered and the rough way made smooth - Biblical I tell you..
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2021 2:04:34 GMT
(1) You are of course correct about the 218th. Later when I was working with the 1BDE (Simulation)/87th Exercise Division and when I was running the 2CR Simulation Center at Fort Polk, I ran simulation exercises for the 256. 1/87 also ran the for the 218, so I think that accounts for my mistake. Thanks for the correction.
(2) Very Cool. The light divisions could be effective but I am not sure sacrificing the tank/mech battalions to the air transport gods were the best idea. But I am well known for my support of heaviness in spite of the lack of sea transport. My contribution to the Army was nowhere so significant. My mentor (who I acquired at University of Florida when he was a CPT and I a CDT and we served together in 1/1 ID and in the G3/1ID) was in the 7ID(L). He was more comfortable there than in 1ID(M) but never really got into tactics and preferred more scholarly assignments. He is somewhat in awe of my 'tactical prowess' and seldom remarks upon tactical things. He is the one person I would jump off a cliff for, there are a couple I'd follow, more I would just stare at, and some I would push.
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Post by yanmacca on Jul 6, 2021 6:30:08 GMT
Now I can't see the point of adding more of one element, the balance is thrown. Mechanised infantry battalion with a tank battalion is fine, its balanced, you can add your other support elements according, like cavalry, engineers, artillery and ground attack helicopters.
I don't know just how many battle tanks to a US tank battalion, but in today's type of battle with modern weapons, wouldn't a single tank battalion be enough for the job?
I don't think we will even see large tank forces pitched against each other, if it did then we are fighting WW3, so not a good out come for anyone.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2021 10:29:39 GMT
In a combined arms battalion, In an Armor Heavy battalion there are 3 companies, there are either 29 M1 tanks (two companies of 14 and 1 tank for the commander), 16 IFVs (1 company of 14 and 1 BFV each for the XO and S3), and 3 M3 CFV for the Scout platoon, which also has 8 HMMWVs. There is also a mortar platoon of 3 guns. in the Infantry Heavy CAB, ther are 30 IFV (14 in each company, 1 each for the S3 and XO, 15 M1 Tanks,14 in the tank company and 1 for the CO. For the CO, XO, and S-3, the vehicle they use is up to them and based on their branch and training. There are three battalions, two are 1M2T and the other is 2M1T.
The CABs used to be balanced with 2 two tank and two mech companies and the battalions were the same. Both of these versions have 3 battalions and cavalry squadron.
Before that, they were balanced but there were only two battalions and the cavalry squadron.
Before that, companies were pure. Tank battalions had 58 tanks, 14/company and 1 for the CO/XO. Infantry Battalions had 58 M2 IFV 14/company and 2 for the CO/XO. Each had a scout platoon of 6 M3 CFC.
Before that, the Infantry battalion had an anti tank company with 4 M113s and 12 M901 TOW Vehicles.
Before that, things were the same, but with M60 tanks and M113s and M901s.
And before that, companies were three battalions. Tank battalions had 54 tanks, 3 companies of 17 (3 5-tank platoons) and a tank for the CO, XO, and either the S-3 or the Battalion Fire Support Officer. Infantry Battalions had 3 companies and were organized about the same, but they also had a mortar section of 3 81mmm mortars and 2 TOW Vehicles.
Before that, the battalions were the same but had a Combat Support Company. Armor Companies had 3 platoons, scout, mortar, and air defense. Infantry Companies had an AT Platoon added on with 1 M113 and 12, 3-4 vehicle TOW Sections.
In my view you need 3, maybe 4 battalions per brigade and 4 company battalions. This lets each commandet constitute a reserve.
If you believe the 3:1 rule, which does not have any real analytical basis behind it but is a useful rule of thumb, the attacker needs to have 3 times the commbat power of the enemy. Thus a 3 tank battalion can attack 1 company. a 3 platoon company can attack a platoon, and a platoon attacks 1 or 2 vehicles.
I personally think tank companies should go back to 5 tank platoons for 17 tanks. US Mech Companies should have 20 vehicles, CO, XO and 6/platoon. This would enable them to carry more infantry plus the various attachments that are added to the platoons (medic and FO). Each Bradley holds 6 or 7 people and had 3 squads of 6 or 7 for a total of 18 - 21 dismounts. Going to six vehicles would let you carry 24 - 28 dismounts. attachments of various sorts would ride in the PL or PSG vehicles. Perhaps you could do it with 5. CABs do not have nearly enough infantry and lack of personnel makes them have even fewer people for dismounted work, since the unit will fill casualties to the vehicle crews a the expense of dismounts.
Stryker and Light Infantry squads are 9 people plus a weapon squad. They also have a mortar section. Platoons have 27 people in the rifle squads, 9 in the Weapons Squad, and a HQ of 3, for a total of 39 or so. The Infantry company has a mortar section. The battalion has a weapons company with HMMWVs with Machine Guns, Automatic Grenade Launchers, and TOWs. It also has a scout platoon and mortar platoon.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 6, 2021 12:42:41 GMT
Balance Ian, is not a one and one proposition. Balance is a function of the terrain you are fighting on.
In the desert for instance you are going to need more tanks to properly balance a combat organization, while there in Europe you are going to require more Infantry in the combined arms team to deal with a more built up environment, that requires you to dismount and clear out. So while a one to one ratio is numerically balanced you need to balance the force to the type of terrain you are fighting on. The more open the area - more tanks. The more confined, built up, the more wooded - more Infantry.
There is a slight correction to Mike's post. The Stryker platoon, in addition to what Mike gave you, also includes another eight people to serve as Stryker drives and vehicle commanders. Those eight do not dismount, rather they stay with the vehicle, and if they can support the dismounts with fire.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 6, 2021 13:45:28 GMT
Mike: The other half of that Round Out story is that at the very same time, but not associated with the briefing I related, the Guard Bureau was all hot to trot about rounding out the 6th Infantry Division (Light) in Alaska. As you probably know what the Guard has in Alaska is primarily the Alaska Scouts, and a few bits of ash and trash. The Alaska Scouts are untouchable in that they are so unique, and provide such a valuable function. So where do you get a round out brigade for the 6th? After my near run thing with my career, Herb Temple, then Chief of the Army Guard, called me to his office and asked me that question. My answer was - Sir, avoid having the Guard round out the 6th like you would avoid the Bubonic Plague. It will have no good result. To my surprise that is exactly what he did. He pretended that the Guard had nothing to offer, because we were overstretched on our commitments as it was. Thus the round out went to the 205th Infantry Brigade of the Army Reserve, headquartered in Minnesota. They still had two combat brigades at the time. Long way from Minnesota to Alaska, and the arrangement never worked out well for either the 6th or the 205th.
With light Infantry it is the cross leveling of expertise between the round out and the rounded out, that makes all the difference. That's true with the heavies as well, and the closer the two elements are geographically the better. Don't know if you guys in the 1st ID ever did it or not, but we would routinely fund, and allot Air Guard aircraft to transport heavy round out company, and battalion size units to the posts of their parents for such things as firing tank tables and annual training, where the round out would leave their heavy equipment behind and fall in on the parents equipment to train. We even did it for weekend drills. I went along with the 1-103rd Armor from York, PA to Knox for one such weekend. Left on Friday night, and fell in on the equipment early Saturday morning. Did range firing all Saturday, Saturday night, and Sunday morning. Left Sunday afternoon for York, and home to Mama for supper. Of course a lot of guys from the 194th Armored Brigade, cleaned up afterward, and it could not have been pulled off without them. That is how the Regular and Reserve Components of the Army are supposed to operate. As I recall there were about fifty cases of beer left behind. Don't know whatever happened to that beer. Someone found it I suppose.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 6, 2021 14:05:07 GMT
As to modern tank on tank wars Ian: In the Middle East today, democrats and despots alike look upon the calculus of military power as a function of how many tanks do you have. The more the better. Now I am not one for advocating we, the USA, the UK, or NATO getting involved in Middle East conflicts, but sometimes wars have a way of finding us, rather than us going looking about to find one.
Regional wars get you killed just as dead as the Battle of the Bulge, so we must be prepared for them.
Finding the right mix of forces is sort of like the kids game of Rock-Paper-Scissors. The paper covers the rock. The rock breaks the scissors. The scissors cut the paper. So the moral of that story is that if you want to break scissors, you damned well better have a rock. On the other hand if you want to cut paper you best have some scissors, because a rock will not do.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2021 17:25:22 GMT
Mike: The other half of that Round Out story is that at the very same time, but not associated with the briefing I related, the Guard Bureau was all hot to trot about rounding out the 6th Infantry Division (Light) in Alaska. As you probably know what the Guard has in Alaska is primarily the Alaska Scouts, and a few bits of ash and trash. The Alaska Scouts are untouchable in that they are so unique, and provide such a valuable function. So where do you get a round out brigade for the 6th? After my near run thing with my career, Herb Temple, then Chief of the Army Guard, called me to his office and asked me that question. My answer was - Sir, avoid having the Guard round out the 6th like you would avoid the Bubonic Plague. It will have no good result. To my surprise that is exactly what he did. He pretended that the Guard had nothing to offer, because we were overstretched on our commitments as it was. Thus the round out went to the 205th Infantry Brigade of the Army Reserve, headquartered in Minnesota. They still had two combat brigades at the time. Long way from Minnesota to Alaska, and the arrangement never worked out well for either the 6th or the 205th. With light Infantry it is the cross leveling of expertise between the round out and the rounded out, that makes all the difference. That's true with the heavies as well, and the closer the two elements are geographically the better. Don't know if you guys in the 1st ID ever did it or not, but we would routinely fund, and allot Air Guard aircraft to transport heavy round out company, and battalion size units to the posts of their parents for such things as firing tank tables and annual training, where the round out would leave their heavy equipment behind and fall in on the parents equipment to train. We even did it for weekend drills. I went along with the 1-103rd Armor from York, PA to Knox for one such weekend. Left on Friday night, and fell in on the equipment early Saturday morning. Did range firing all Saturday, Saturday night, and Sunday morning. Left Sunday afternoon for York, and home to Mama for supper. Of course a lot of guys from the 194th Armored Brigade, cleaned up afterward, and it could not have been pulled off without them. That is how the Regular and Reserve Components of the Army are supposed to operate. As I recall there were about fifty cases of beer left behind. Don't know whatever happened to that beer. Someone found it I suppose. My Brigade went and provided training to the 218th toward the end of my active duty career. I was responsible for supplying both our brigade as well as the 218th. I don't remember doing a lot of support for them other than that. However, when I was the Armor Training Division, we of course had units of the 35 ID(M) (from Kelly's Heros) shoot gunnery there. We shot a lot and it was hard to fit them into the schedule, so the Chief called me in and said to figure it out. What I came up with is we would shoot Monday - Friday and the Guard would Shoot Friday to Sunday. They would leave their tanks in the gunnery motor pool and we provided guards and wire around them. We ran the range for them, provided all the Tank Crew Evaluators, and some limited maintenance support (labor, but no parts). So, they got more training with less distractions. Most of our soldiers got the weekends off. They didn't have to turn their tanks in every weekend, so they got to shoot more. I got double pump hand shakes from various 1 ID leaders and I think some from the 35th. At the same time, I scored some long term loans of a table top gunnery simulator/game and boresight scopes. Later I also got a bunch of free targets, ammunition, and construction money to test the prototype hardware for the Army's Multi-Purpose Range Complex which made me a little hero because ever battalion got to shoot an extra gunnery that year and I cleverly sold the CG on it when I said it would let us continue to shoot while the our new MPRC was built. I also designed the MPRC. In still other fun, I was the night watch officer in the DTAC. I loved being in the G-3. other than the 11th ACR and the back to back command of my 2nd and 3rd tank companies, that was the best time I had in the Army.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2021 17:26:22 GMT
yanmacca: What Chuck said. He's pretty articulate and smart for a light infantryman.
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