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Post by quincannon on Jul 8, 2021 3:58:59 GMT
Mike: Something has been troubling me since we first started discussing battle groups. I knew there was something missing in my memory that was important to the discussion but just could not recall what it was.
Anyway I was spraying some clear flat on one of my tanks about an hour ago and while I was waiting for it to dry so I could bring it to my upstairs work bench I was fiddle farting around paging through a couple of books to kill time, Picked up John Wilson's "Firepower and Maneuver" turned to the Atomic Age Division chapter, and there it was PENTANA. PENTANA was a study done by the War College in 1955 that calls for a division composed of battle groups of about 1200 people. The BG's included an artillery battery, and there were five BG's to a division. The rest of the division was very austere, judging from the wiring diagram in John's (another friend of mine) book.
The full title of the War College study is "Doctrinal and Organizational Concepts for the Atomic-Nonatomic Army During the Period 1960-1970". Any ideas on how to get hold of that study? I looked a few moments ago on line, with no luck. Maybe Mark has a good source.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2021 9:03:27 GMT
Unable to find that. The only thing I got is the same book you do. Let me try a couple of friends.
Jeeze oh Pete! PENTANA makes the LID look like an Armor Division. It's too light to fight! What I see here is the WWII lesson of a bunch of independent groups and seperate battalions to be attached to divisions as needed was unlearned and the association became largely habitual. Even the Pentomic divison is heavier with its support elements which I suspect is why it evolved from PENTANA and even the PENTOMIC division is heavier than the Light Division.
Also what everyone seems not to understand is our Aviation Brigades are even harder to deploy than an Armored Brigade. What they lack in weight they make up in cube and for the most part they can't self deploy. When I moved 2BDE1ID to the NTC, even my trains got to the NTC before the Aviation Brigade did and I think even my road march column as well as the sealift from Alaska got there faster. But I may be making some of that up. Maybe I didn't have a road march column.
The Division Base probably needs to be heavier than it is today (Its really only the Division HHBN + DIVARTY.) Everything else is based on BCTS or Supporting Brigades. I'm thinking...
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Post by quincannon on Jul 8, 2021 15:34:43 GMT
All true of course you will find no argument from me regarding the final PENTANA Project.
What I want to see is the complete PENTANA study, so I may find out what the thinking was behind it. Seems to me, based on a line or two in John's book, that those guys at the War College, saw the same problem you and I did with exterior lines and strategic mobility, and were trying to address it in those early years.
The PENTANA division as shown in the wiring diagram evidently ignored the modern definition of a division, which is an all arms organization that is mostly "self sustaining". The "self sustaining" is the operative phrase. It is obvious that, regardless of the absence of anything heavy, the organization itself was not self sustaining. PENTANA reminds me of a "handicapped" Infantry brigade on steroids, not a division.
ROCID (the Pentomic Infantry division) put the base back in, and restored the division to the definition of self sufficiency. As I see it though, what ROCID lacked was modern command and control means. They never got all the things necessary to make PENTOMIC work, so they decided it was the organizations fault, not the fault of the logistics, and Congress for failing to provide the means to make it work, so the concept itself could be fairly tested.
For the record. I am no fan of aviation in brigade strength being in any of our divisions. Divisions need a company (at most) for liaison work. Aviation should be in separate below the line brigades, useful to and deployed by the corps level of command. My opinion of course, which might buy you a cup of coffee at my house, but only if you are a very good boy and pet my dog so she won't do a "happy pee" all over your pants leg.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2021 20:11:57 GMT
I agree seeing the study would be very intersting. I have e-mailed two friends, one has not replied, but is searching as he is interested in the divison's evolution. The other has not replied, but he has a treasure trove of resources. I was his XO from 78-79. He now lives near DC and has two houses. He lives in one with numerous books and stuff and then visits his other house, also full of books and stuff he terms the annex. His last job was the Book Director for AUSA. I hope you have beverages other than coffee, for a variety of reasons I do not understand, I did not inherit my parents desire for coffee or smoking. DR Pepper, however, is quite addicting in its own right.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2021 20:24:57 GMT
Maybe we need to consider Dusters. The DIVAD was an abortion. I didn't realize it was around till 88 in the Guard. It would have been fine shooting down the Iraqi 26th ID's trench lines, but the Vulcans did okay.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 9, 2021 0:37:49 GMT
3rd Battalion, 111th Air Defense Artillery VAARNG had Dusters into the 1980's. From what I remember the guns themselves were fine, but the chassis they were mounted on gave up the ghost, mainly spare parts. I can't recall if they used an M24 Chaffee, or a M41 Walker chassis, I think it was the M41.
When I get up in the morning I have two cups of coffee while I am getting a first read on you rascals for the day. That is of course accompanied by my pipe, which I have been smoking since I was seventeen. I hate cigarettes. The only time I ever smoke a cigar is with my son in law Bill, but now that he does not go to Korea all that often, his supply of Cubans has dried up and the bloom is off that particular rose. Most times in is Lemonade (I prefer pink and take no shit for my choices) and hot tea in the evening. I prefer the expensive stuff, and not the crap you get at the grocery store. My one real vice occurs on Christmas Eve. I come home from Christmas Eve service, pour myself my one glass of single malt I allow myself for the year, turn on NBC and watch the Pope say Midnight Mass from the Vatican. I have done that for better than thirty years. Joan says it is my way of hedging my bets on my converting from RC to an Episcopalian.
Sergeant York, now there was one cocked up abortion for you. When the old Sarge was around there was not an electric light pole that he did not address with malice of forethought
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Post by quincannon on Jul 9, 2021 1:38:05 GMT
I have been meaning to mention that I have a Team Yankee Rule Book for anyone that wants one. It came with a starter set, and I was just interested in the models not the game. Anyone who wants it send me your mailing address by PM and it's yours.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2021 1:39:08 GMT
From the article, the turret was first on the M24 but as it gave up the ghost they put it on the M41. The Danes did a neat job on the M41 to modernize it. There is a conversion kit or a full kit out there somewhere, I think from England. tanknutdave.com/the-danish-m41-dk-tank/Interstingly enough, the M8s turret ring would accept a Sheridan, M41, or its own turret, so I think it might be able to take the Duster Turret. My non-alcoholic drink of choice is DR Pepper followed closely by Limeade. Mixing Lime and Lemonade is also good. Bourbon is usually neat, but sometimes on the rocks. I turned athiest after I sat down and analyzed the RC church and have not looked back in about 1979. My wife however, is Mormon. Nt viewing is usually the Capital Forth but now I tend to watch selected war movies on the anniversry of various battles. I do not undersstand why old George Picket charges every time when I tell him to not go. Its frustrating. But, you knnow he was an MG and I'm just an LTC. I mean, do you think he is going to listen to me?
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Post by quincannon on Jul 9, 2021 2:04:49 GMT
How will we punish Pickett, for not listening to you Mike? Wait a minute I know. We'll rename the Army post in Blackstone. Virginia. We should though, seeing as the southerners that still support the idea of treason are throwing a hissy fit about post renaming give them an Army Post that will be a surrogate to make up for all those nasty name changes. It should be named after that most illustrious of all confederate general officers Jubilation T. Cornpone. What a fitting tribute to the treasonous men of the south.
Anyway I want to pass my Infantry School at Benning beer mug onto my great grandson. By the time he goes to college, anything with the words Fort Benning on it will be a rare artifact of a bygone day, worth a fortune. Enough to pay his way to Harvard.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2021 2:42:30 GMT
All of my children and grandchildren are daughters. 7. I think I will give my oldest daughter my saber and spurs with instructions that it goes to the first descendent to join the amred forces, else to the eldest to pass to eldest till one shows up. Also to go will be my Spur Certificate, Border Legion Certificate, and my Commisions. I may give her all my medals since she is the family historian...
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Post by quincannon on Jul 9, 2021 3:47:17 GMT
I would give my great grandson my medals, but I am afraid I would have to explain to him what I received them for, and taking out the trash, does not have the right ring of valor to me.
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Post by yanmacca on Jul 9, 2021 5:33:08 GMT
There are some good videos on YouTube concerning Gettysburg, I saw one last night where this chap had the original photos from the battle at Roses farm, you all know the photos, they are pretty famous. Well he has tracked down the field which they were took and using the various boulders in the field, has matched them up to the ones in the photos, pretty good if you like that sort of thing.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2021 10:25:34 GMT
I would give my great grandson my medals, but I am afraid I would have to explain to him what I received them for, and taking out the trash, does not have the right ring of valor to me. One of my daughters wanted to wear my medals when she was in a band during concerts. I swiftly disabused her of that notion. I do not have a large chuck of medals/ribbons. If not for Desert Storm it would only be three rows or so. I tried to refuse my Bronze Star and had a pretty heated argument with the G-3. I finally got the last word by replying "Yes, sir" to his last sentance to me which was STFU and receive it in good grace Robe. I tell people I have a BSM with "T" for typing. I am pretty sure models, games, and books will pretty much end up in the trash. Since I live on the island where I went to high school, I may donate all my military history books to the HS ROTC detachment here and the rest to the HS Library, although I doubt they will last long there, either.
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