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Post by quincannon on Aug 6, 2019 15:32:12 GMT
According to the Marines themselves the only Japanese guns that gave them any trouble was the 150mm, which they named "Pistol Peter" It was the only gun that could reach Henderson Field in the approximate middle of the Lunga Perimeter. Don't know the range on that gun, nor the number present, but in reading the narratives it seem that they (the Marines) thought it was only one or at most two pieces.
The range you give for the 105mm seems a little long. My 105mm's could only get out to about 11,500 meters. Keep in mind though that mine were howitzers not guns. The 105 is roughly the same as a 4" naval gun.
By far the most effective weapons the Japanese had against Henderson Field were naval rifles that would periodically bombard the airfield (Henderson and Fighter One) in connection with the nearly nightly (at times) runs of the Tokyo Express, Most times the size of the guns were five inch on board destroyers, who would discharge their cargo then make one pass by Lunga Point firing in the perimeter, then do a 180 degree turn and slip out past Savo Island.
As far as artillery spotters go, I sort of doubt that observed fire control was used, The Japanese had very unreliable radios (which is ironic given today when Japanese electronic products are both so good and plentiful) and the jungle around Henderson really did not give you much in the way of observation. Hitting Henderson though was simply Map and Math gunnery, considering they did not really care what they hit as long as the fall of shot was on the airfield. Today we call this H and I (Harassment and Interdiction) fires, fires designed to make life miserable on the receiving end, but not intended for the destruction of specific targets.
The Marine Division's artillery at the time was one regiment of four battalions. Three of these battalions had 75mm howitzers, and the fourth battalion had 105mm's. Very light stuff compared with what they use today, but the range on these guns, coupled with the jungle insured that the Japanese guns kept their distance, to avoid counter battery fires.
Supplying troops in an efficient and timely manner is something the U S Army and Marine Corps take very seriously then and now. The only ones that even come close to U S Forces in this regard are the UK and Commonwealth. We base everything we do on the ability to supply and sustain, and our forces have a huge logistics tail, that enables us to conduct full spectrum combat, any place on the globe. When you look at it, our tail is far larger than our teeth, which exasperates the combat only oriented guys who want one or two more divisions in the forces structure. It is what enables us to provide the necessities like ammo as well as the goodies like cold Coca Cola to our troops anywhere in the world. Where we go we take a little bit of America with us. The reason, very simple. It keeps troops moral up, and that in turn makes them more lethal in the field. As many of you know my son in law just finished a year and a half long tour as deputy commander at Bagram Air Base in Afghanistan. He told me that it was much like any small town in America as far as facilities go. He sent me two challenge coins for Christmas, One is strictly Bagram, while the other has a logo of the Bagram base on one side, and the Washington Redskins logo on the other. He found time while he was there to go bowling at the Bagram bowling alley. I don't think Henderson Field had challenge coins or bowling alleys, but I do think you get my point. Today for every Brigade Combat Team we deploy, about 4000 personnel, we deploy as sustaining force which is about twice that number
One additional thing concerning the Japanese and it revolves around a comment I made a day or so ago. I mentioned that the Japanese due to the lack of heavy equipment could not move landed "over the beach" supplies inland. Many was the day when a prowling U S destroyer would receive intelligence on a landing site of the night before and bombard the beach side supply dumps, making all the efforts of the Tokyo Express of the night before null and void.
Tell you the truth I don't think the Japanese Army ever had a prayer of defeating the Marines in the Lunga Perimeter, no matter how dire the circumstances of the Marines looked from afar. As long as the supply faucet was not turned off they were going to stay there until hell froze over if need be.
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Post by quincannon on Aug 6, 2019 15:46:28 GMT
First off, if anyone wants more information on the PT boats I would direct you to a number of soft back books available on line written by T. Garth "Tim" Connelly. Tim, despite being confined to a wheel chair, is probably the most knowledgeable person on the planet, living today, on the subject.
Tom, all German boats were S Bootes, S for schnell (fast). It was the Brits who called them E for enemy boats, and the name stuck.
Many of the export boats were built in Annapolis by John Trumpy and Sons, and that site was right across the Severn opposite the city docks.
Most of the PT boats that were in the Guadalcanal Campaign were based on Tulagi. There is a very interesting background story on their tender U S S Jamestown. As built it was at the time the largest and most luxury laden yacht in the world.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Aug 6, 2019 18:28:48 GMT
I have partied on several Trumpy yachts, the last one in San Diego about 20 years ago, it was still a beauty with great attention to detail. Also once upon a time there was PT boat that was converted into a party boat, that plied the bay in my youth. We were also plied with adult beverages.
PT boats had their share of foibles, but their successes outweighed them.
Regards, Tom
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Post by yanmacca on Aug 6, 2019 19:56:58 GMT
Chuck, as far as I know the Japanese had only one type of 150mm gun, but this was so heavy that only a few actually left Japan. Some served in Malaya and the Philippines, but the bulk of them were kept in Japan. The problem was it was just too dam heavy and had to be transported in two parts.
The type 4 was a pretty good weapon too, it could fire an 80 pound HE shell nearly 10.000 yards. The type 92 cannon was regarded as a fine weapon, it served right through from 1932 to 1945 and it was noted for its range, accuracy and powerful round.
My Japanese friend Taki, has this breakdown of Japanese artillery used on Guadalcanal;
75mm Field Gun - 1,370 rounds 75mm Mountain Gun - 150 rounds Type 91 10cm Howitzer - Unknown Type 4 15cm Howitzer - 420 rounds Type 96 15cm Howitzer - 709 rounds Type 92 10cm Cannon - 742 rounds
Here are the units which had these weapons;
10th Independent Mountain Gun Regiment (3 x batteries only) - 9 x Type 41 75mm Mountain Guns 20th Independent Mountain Gun Battalion - 6 x Bofors 75mm Mountain Guns 2nd Battery/7th Field Heavy Artillery Regiment - 4 x Type 92 10cm Cannons 2nd Battery/21st Field Heavy Artillery Battalion - 4 x Type 4 15cm Howitzers
2nd Field Artillery Regiment; 7 x Type 38-improved 75mm Field Guns 4 x Type 91 10cm Howitzers 5 x Bofors 75mm Mountain Guns 3 x Batteries/38th Mountain Gun Regiment; 5 x Type 41 75mm Mountain Guns 2 x Type 94 75mm Mountain Guns
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Post by quincannon on Aug 6, 2019 21:33:37 GMT
I think Pistol Pete was a 15cm gun Ian, and having only four in that one battery of the 21st FA seems to fit the accounts. Nearly everyone who was on Guadalcanal commented on two things - Pistol Pete, and Washing Machine Charlie (sometimes known as Louie the Louse). There was no one Washing Machine Charlie. Sometimes they were observation aircraft from a seaplane base the IJN set up northward in the Solomons but close enough to Guadalcanal for it to be well within range, and sometimes they were observation aircraft from a cruiser that came down the slot with the Express. In both cases they would fly over the perimeter drop a couple of bombs in the wee small hours of the morning, enough to wake you up, and piss you off.
Invite Taki here, I would love to get to know him and pick his brain.
Tom you really need to get some of Tim's books. They are available on the internet, or at any good hobby shop. and Tim is a great guy who is free with his time and does not mind sharing what he knows. I met him on a couple of my shipbuilding web sites. Due to his physical condition he cannot build models of his own, so he commissions them to be built by a friend of his. A while back he started a collection of Air Guard aircraft. I know he had two or three then from the Mass and Conn Air Guard. Don;t know if he has added more since then.
The place I buy my models in Japan has a fairly new model of the IJN DD that ripped the 109 boat a new ass, along with a companion piece of the PT109. It sold fast and is presently out of stock but I plan to get one as soon as the vendor is resupplied.
One of the first ship models I built as a kid was a Higgins 78 Footer by Revell. There are a lot of PT's out in model land. Best one I have ever seen is an S100 class Schnellboote in 1/72 scale making the model a little over two feet long. It is still on display at my local hobby shop.
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Post by yanmacca on Aug 7, 2019 8:19:53 GMT
Hi Chuck, I haven’t had any contact with Taki for four or five years, as far as I know he sticks only to what he knows best and that is the Japanese army. His web site is very good, but I found him a bit stiff and pretty cold, but that is understandable I suppose giving the language difficulties, as he is probably a nice guy if you met in face to face. He was willing to help though and always gave me an answer to any questions. I remember a conversation I had with him back in 2010, I wanted a breakdown of a company HQ in a standard Japanese infantry company.
Here was his reply;
You are misunderstanding. IJA infantry company did not have HQ. It only had a commanding section if necessary. Commanding section was composed of some soldiers and usually commanded by Warrant Officer. The composition of commanding section was not regulated in TO&E. Taki.
The only source I have is the Japanese army handbook by George Forty and I quote, the standard IJA infantry company has a HQ of 1 x Officer and 18 other ranks. Yan.
You can see that Taki shares your opinion of George Forty , but a few other members joined in the conversation with their sources stating that they had also data on the existence of a Japanese Infantry Company HQ;
The origin of misunderstanding is HANDBOOK ON JAPANESE MILITARY FORCES WAR DEPARTMENT 1944. Every western source copy’s its mistakes. First of all, company HQ is a mistake. It should be commanding section. The composition of commanding section is various, because it is at company commander's option. The composition shown as company HQ on the handbook is one example of commanding section. Note that the TO&E of Japanese infantry is not one kind, but various. To say extremely, it is different unit by unit. Taki.
Here is a link to his website;
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Aug 7, 2019 11:26:59 GMT
Something of interest
Cheers
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Post by rebcav on Aug 7, 2019 11:44:42 GMT
Let us not forget the contributions of the venerable APD's. 77 years ago today, my Grandfather CWO-2 Harry J. Belles was aboard the U.S.S. McKean landing Marine Raiders on Tulagi. I'd give everything I have for just one more day of golf and conversation with that man. He would have been 100 today. He was SO PROUD of his service with the Marine Raiders.
Respectfully Submitted,
Duane.
Attachments:
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Post by quincannon on Aug 7, 2019 16:33:30 GMT
Ian: To understand the Japanese, you must either be Japanese, or take a deep dive into their culture. We mistakenly believe that they are just like us, and that they would do things like us, organize like us, act just like us, and plan like us. They don't, but still we continue to have that belief.
There are only two notable western authors that completely understand the Japanese in my book, and unfortunately they confine themselves to the Japanese Navy. Their book is "Shattered Sword" their web site is "Combined Fleet, and they are Johnathan Parshall and Anthony Tully. Gordon Prange comes very close, as he spent many years in Japan, and knew many of the major Japanese Navy figures that survived the war. Of course he dealt mainly with the Japanese Navy too. I do not know of anyone who is a reliable authority on the Japanese Army, and I have looked - a lot. In the US I believe the main reason for this is that I primary adversary in the Pacific was the Japanese Navy. Given their preference the Japanese Army wanted nothing to do with the Pacific theater. They were most at home on continental Asia, and had organized themselves around the principle that China and Russia were their most likely potential enemies. The Japanese Navy on the other hand had looked at the United States, and to a slightly lesser extent Great Britain and the Pacific Commonwealth Nations.
So, when Taki tells you there was no headquarters in a Japanese Army company he is telling you the truth as he knows it to be. To the Japanese the English word Headquarters has an entirely different meaning. Commanding Section in the Japanese Army was composed of what the company commander wanted it to be. It would vary in composition from company to company, and chances are that no two companies would be alike. In practice the U S Army does the same thing, the company headquarters is what the company commander wants it to be, and the only limitation placed on that commander, is that he limited to the total number of people in his company and the amount of equipment the Army says a company should have as outlined by the MTO&E.
Why is that? Simple answer really. Every commander commands differently, and he must arrange his tool box as he sees fit, just the very same way you do when you go out on a home improvement job, Personally as a platoon leader, company commander, and battalion commander, I took the limiting constraints of the MTO&E, and did what I damned well pleased with them. An example: On paper in my day the weapons platoon leader controlled a section of mortars, and a section of 106mm RR's. Each of those sections had a section leader. What I would do, and it worked is leave the two section leaders running their respective sections, and bring the platoon leader and platoon sergeant into my headquarters group. The Platoon leader would work with me and my attached artillery forward observer to compose and direct fires planning. The Platoon Sergeant would assist the First Sergeant and Supply Sergeant in company logistics, the platoon sergeants area of interest in that case being all classes of ammunition. That way I had my First Sergeant and Supply Sergeant back in the battalion trains doing their primary functions, and the weapons platoon sergeant with my command element keeping track of all the stuff we needed to shoot with.
George Forty would be much better off, and the world also, if he would stick to what he knows, and is an authority on, which is the British Army, and stop trying to set himself up as and expert on something he knows little about and understands even less. Armies, Navies, and Air Forces are organized primarily as a reflection of the nations and cultures they spring from and supports them.
These were four APD's that made a great record for themselves in the Pacific Duane, your grandfathers McKean, along with Little, Gregory and Calhoun. Were I to have my way, and obviously I don't, the new class of frigates now in the planning stage, would be the Hero Ships Class, and those four would be the first of that class to carry United States Colors to sea. By hero ships class what I mean is this. Just about everyone knows that USN destroyers and frigates are named for distinguished Navy and Marine Corps personnel. McKean, Little, Gregory and Calhoun were so named. What I am getting at though is make the naming criteria of the new frigate class, ships that have distinguished themselves above any beyond in combat. Names like Laffey, Arron Ward, O'Bannon, Samuel B. Roberts, Hoel, Johnston, Edsall, Pope, Pillsbury, Parrott. There are probably fifty or more standouts, but I am not about to list them all here. While the ships themselves carry the old names of naval heroes, these ships would honor the crews of the ships that carry the distinguished name, the crews that made the ships famous.
Today is Guadalcanal Day, the day the United States Marine Corps came of age.
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Post by yanmacca on Aug 7, 2019 19:57:36 GMT
I totally agree Chuck, that is why I posted our conversation from nine years ago. Every western author thought that the US book ‘’Handbook on Japanese Military Forces War Department 1944’’ was the holy grail concerning the Japanese army in WW2, but as Taki said, it was fake news and he has shown us all that we should not take for granted what all authors write.
It is the same concerning the BLBH, those blokes who drew the early maps of the battle are still being quoted by authors today and influencing masses of people.
Good Bless the USMC and men like John Basilone, who did his bit, then shunned the opportunity to sit the rest of the war back in the states, a decision which cost him his life.
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Post by quincannon on Aug 7, 2019 21:22:03 GMT
Don't forget Mitchell Paige, MOH, and so many others that shaped the ethos of the United States Marines. Don't know if you know, but one of the Burke Class Destroyers still under construction is USS Basilone, the second US destroyer to bear his name.
Keep in mind Ian that the 1944 handbook was based on intelligence we gained on the Japanese Army, then translated into something in terms of structure that the American soldier could understand, As you say though it is similar to what we run into concerning LBH. It is a human thing in both instance though. What we first read sticks with us, and it may or may not be correct. Nevertheless it becomes part of our mental picture, and sometimes that picture is maintained for a lifetime.
Personally I have a mental picture of the Flying Tigers gained from films like God Is My Co-Pilot and Flying Tigers, and books like God Is My Co Pilot, and others of that same generation. It is only recently, say the last 20 to 25 years, that the truth about them has come out. They were a bunch of hellions and misfits. Their skills as pilots has been unmasked by their accident rates. After July of 42 many avoided further combat service by staying in China and working for a Chinese airline. Some were hip deep in the black market. None of this takes away from what they did. The record speaks for itself and as December of 41 went on toward June of 42 they did get better, and more importantly more lethal in the air.
Everyone knows of the Flying Tigers. Nearly every model of a P40 sports their shark teeth logo, but as I said earlier, maybe a month ago, the Eagle Squadrons had better, more discipline pilots. Ask someone sometime if they ever heard of the Eagle Squadrons, and you will get a yes, only occasionally. In the same vein ask someone if they ever heard of MacArthur and nearly everyone has. But then ask them if the ever heard of Walter Krueger of Robert Eichelberger, the men who saved MacArthur's ass and reputation, and they will look at you as if you just landed from Mars.
We live in a funny world Ian of misconception and untruth, and I feel that it is all our mission here to within our capabilities correct those misconceptions with truth. Won't make many friends doing that, but you will sleep with a clear conscience.
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dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Aug 8, 2019 0:15:12 GMT
This is an excellent thread full of information and great opinions based on facts not personal opinions. I have a vested interest in this topic as my father served on the heavy cruiser, USS Portland, that was damaged on the night of 12-13 November and he received his first purple heart that night. He was 1 month shy of his 18th birthday and certainly had to be severely affected by seeing his shipmates killed and wounded.
Walter Krueger was an outstanding military officer and man. I have read, can't remember where, that he was sent to the Pacific theater because there was some concern as a native born German he might not perform as well against the Germans. What a bunch of poppycock!
I was fortunate to know Mr. Dave Culver who was a fighter pilot in the Army Air Corps in WW II and he emphatically stated that the P-38 was the better plane than the P-47 he also flew. The 38 had more firepower, centrally aimed, but more importantly it had 2 engines! He was able to limp back to England after being hit by flack over France on 1 engine!
Please keep posting! Regards David
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Post by quincannon on Aug 8, 2019 1:07:50 GMT
You heard right Dave. Krueger was an outstanding general officer. He thought that he was going to spend the war in San Antonio in a training assignment, and probably would have with his German birth and a name like Krueger. His age was a bit against him as well. Someone, probably Marshall, but I am not sure was looking out for him though, and he got orders to activate Sixth Army from the people who had formerly made up Third Army headquartered at Fort Sam Houston. Third Army (the flag only) went to England and eventually Patton got it.
At first Sixth Army was labeled Alamo Force,an obvious choice considering, for security purposes. Don't think they started calling themselves by their proper name (Sixth Army) for quite a while, because one of the things they did upon arrival in theater was to create the Alamo Scouts School. Supposedly the school was intended to draw students in from Infantry units in theater, and conduct a course, somewhat like a mini ranger school, then send these newly schooled soldiers back to their units with the idea of spreading their newly won knowledge around in their units. Never really worked out that way though for it became apparent that a long range reconnaissance force was required, and the Alamo Scouts School became the Alamo Scouts and operational unit. There is one of the little known and under reported stories of World War II. They don't exist any more, but the example they set in the Pacific set the standard for like type operation of our special forces, rangers, Marine Force Recon, and even the SEALS.
Today Sixth Army is called U S Army South, and was consolidated with the old U S Army Southern Command, and wear the old Southern Command patch, vice the Sixth Army Star. The Southern Command Patch was chosen because it was so familiar to the locals in the places Southern Command operates. It is a Spanish galleon.They are headquartered back where they started at Fort Sam in San Antonio.
I never figured out why the P38 was retired so quickly after the war. Your friend is one of many who swore by that aircraft and much preferred it over the 47 and 51. It was a decent fighter but also could serve in a number of other roles, as a night fighter, and recon bird to name only two. I have had a chance to sit in the cockpit of one of three we had here at Petersen awhile ago. Formidable aircraft
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Post by yanmacca on Aug 8, 2019 13:20:33 GMT
I think in advent of the jet engine pretty much sealed the fate of aircraft like the Mosquito and Lighting. After 1945, first generation jet fighters like the Gloster Meteor and Shooting Star were the way forward, especially after the introduction of the MiG-15.
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Post by quincannon on Aug 8, 2019 15:23:27 GMT
Dave: More on Krueger. I am just finishing up "Fire and Fortitude" One thing about summer is that the TV is lousy, so there is plenty of time to read. McManus says that Krueger was selected by MacArthur. I don't know if there was any previous connection or not, but I can't see a MacArthur selection without George Marshall blessing it. Anyway, Alamo Force was brought to the Pacific intentionally as an all American ground force headquarters so that Mac could separate himself for the Australian Army, having Krueger senior to an Australian senior officer. MacArthur had no intention of using any Australian forces in his movement toward, and subsequent assault on the Philippines. Pure MacArthur, he wanted all the glory for himself and was not about to share any limelight with the Boys from Oz, after New Guinea.
Turns out that Eichelberger was then the I Corps commander. He had fought successfully in New Guinea and gained a little national publicity because of it, every bit deserved. MacArthur did not like that one bit, and because of it Eichelberger was on Mac's shit list. That factored into the selection of Krueger as well. In the end Eichelberger ended up commanding Eighth Army,but from 43 onward Eichelberger could not stand MacArthur, and evidently the feeling was mutual. Eichelberger even inquired about taking a reduction in rank and a move to Europe, so he could get out from under MacArthur.
Looked into the P38 thing Ian. The P38 was the only US fighter in production at the beginning of the war that stayed in production until the end. On VJ Day there was still an outstanding order with Lockeed for more than a thousand, that was canceled. All of the P38s were out of service by 1949. You are correct that introduction of the jet was the most prominent factor. We gave quite a few P38's to the Italians to get their Air Force started up again, and the Italians loved them. There was periodic use of the 38 in South America, and in other odd places you would never think of.
What I do not understand though is why the P38, an aircraft designed as an interceptor, was dropped in favor of the P47, which for many years, at least until 1953 was the equipment for the Air National Guard, whose primary function then was air defense of the US. The P38 was clearly a better interceptor, and the 47 a better close support aircraft. There were a lot of F(P)51's around too, in both the Active Air Force, plus the Air Force Reserve and Air National Guard. In fact when Korea broke out the Active Air Force took away all of the D model Mustangs from the Air Guard, and traded them for Active Air Force H models. The D model was a better ground support aircraft, and the H a better dog fighter.
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