mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Apr 20, 2019 12:17:10 GMT
The Freeman map is important as it shows the position labelled 1 where he observed that cavalry had dismounted and fought. This is now well supported by archaeology and is a compelling piece of evidence for the move to Ford D.
As to Ian's map the point of similarity to our current discussion is I assume the Custer trail shown going along some distance east of Ford B and then perhaps up Deep Coulee. The portion south of Ford B I treat with caution as to Freeman differentiating it at this early stage from the advance by Reno and Benteen.
Cheers
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Post by yanmacca on Apr 20, 2019 13:47:28 GMT
I suppose we can rule this move out; Pic 1 the approach, pic 2 get the hell out of here!
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Post by yanmacca on Apr 20, 2019 13:59:30 GMT
Looking up MTC, you can see how deep coulee branches off to the left. The ground seems rather undulating between the two features, but google maps can give you a false impression of the terrain.
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Post by herosrest on Apr 20, 2019 17:03:12 GMT
The Freeman map is important as it shows the position labelled 1 where he observed that cavalry had dismounted and fought. This is now well supported by archaeology and is a compelling piece of evidence for the move to Ford D.
As to Ian's map the point of similarity to our current discussion is I assume the Custer trail shown going along some distance east of Ford B and then perhaps up Deep Coulee. The portion south of Ford B I treat with caution as to Freeman differentiating it at this early stage from the advance by Reno and Benteen.
Cheers
What is taken as Freeman's point one by Richard Fox, isn't a 1 but is rather a squiggle/mark on the paper. I have pointed this out before. Proof of the pudding lies on many plates. Look for the actual number one. When did Freeman visit that terrain? The area is littered with 45/55 'bullets and not cartridges. If the archaeology has been further developed recently then I would appreciate the heads up to published work or reports. Fox based his entire theory of the D ford upon that supposed '1' and supposition, in the notes of his book, that cavalry were there because there is NO archaelogy found there to indicate a pesence. This was 1991, if I remember correctly so there may have been new finds but i'd like to know about them. Fox based science based conclusions upon thin air. That is effective rubbish. He built a theory on thin air. He also destroyed the idea of the South Skirmish Line as postulated by Kuhlman in showin g that few of the marked death sites contained evidence of bodies. We also have from that time the spurious and entirely false identification of Mitch Bouyer based upon a photo which is not Bouyer. In developing D theory which passes the smell test you should stay very far away from Fox's idea and spurious 'proof' which is no more than supposition made out of whispy clouds and steam. ISYN. You have to read the book and the notes - It's chapter 11. The buleets found below Custer's Hill are easyily and very properly explained as overs from the defence of that hill. Troops were aiming high for what ever reason and that puts rounds dropping out where they were found. No need to make it complicated, aim high shooting west from Custer's Hill and you get what was found. I looked at this stuff back aways and LINK to it in 'The Corner' for those with an interest. Great link as well to a long time battle student who is worth listening to.
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Post by herosrest on Apr 20, 2019 18:18:38 GMT
There is another set of data relevant to the topic which I offer, particularly for any considering the discussion broadly. I've borrowed from elsewhere. linkLt Roe 1881 interviewed Curley. Roe drew a map of the troops leaving MTC. This drawing shows troops moving up to Luce, Butler, Greasy Grass Hill and beyond. Complies with the Curtis Map showing the man Custer's movement down at B and bump over to GGH. I to Luce L to Butler C bumps over to GGH E and F portion with HQ, leave river fords to GGH Gerry None other than the honorable James S. Hutchins. acquired from the Curtis papers, a type written carbon copy with maps in ink. Curley's story of the BLBH, interpreter "Leforgey" Thomas H. LeForge, as recorded by 1st LT Charles R. Roe, Fort Custer March 8, 1881 Roe says "a copy to the Army & Navy Journal, for publication, March 10th, '82." Ref: "The Papers of Edward S. Curtis relating to the Custer;s Last Battle", Introduced and edited by James S. Hutchins, Upton and Sons 2000 Gerry To my mind, tiny or otherwise, this information tells of Custer's command deploying in echelon to negotiate the terrain. Perfectly sensible at the time it would be undertaken it may subsequently have become an unfortunate deployment in trying to move across DC under pressure. Our Colonel's and higher grades can explain this movement and its purpose.
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Post by yanmacca on Apr 20, 2019 19:53:25 GMT
Hi HR, I don't know about you 'me auld china' but that looks to me as if the whole Custer battalion took up defensive positions right from the get go! Two go straight to LSH, another to FFR, another to Calhoun hill and the last one, to the Keogh sector. If this scenario panned out like that, we would have no soldiers on cemetery ridge.
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Post by herosrest on Apr 20, 2019 20:32:29 GMT
The movements are across the divide - from MTC through the divide and onto Deep Coulee, so its the opening phase of Custer's action to the west flank of Deep Coulee. Whether or not Ford B environs was a fly by or drive through or whatever, Roe is suggesting the companies operating in bunches already and in a military formation for manouvre (echelon) which makes some sense. I'm hoping to draw some professional opinion on it. We don't know how much time was spent in this area unless you go with E.S. Curtis and I have that as a sticking point with his research.
What is shown is from MTC to Deep Coulee and from river back to Calhoun Hill.
Quote - This drawing shows troops moving up to Luce, Butler, Greasy Grass Hill and beyond. Complies with the Curtis Map showing the man Custer's movement down at B and bump over to GGH.
I to Luce L to Butler C bumps over to GGH E and F portion with HQ, leave river fords to GGH
Gerry
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Post by yanmacca on Apr 21, 2019 13:09:41 GMT
Are you sure Gerry, it still looks wrong to me, how did Curley see all of this?
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Post by quincannon on Apr 21, 2019 13:56:42 GMT
Left echelon would be a bad formation for the terrain that would have to be covered. There is far too brokeness about it, and would be vary hard to control. Add to that the distances separating the companies would make it very easy for one company to get cut off.
Right or left echelon is a good formation to move in, terrain permitting, if the need is both forward movement and flank protection if either right or left flank is exposed, or geared that it will be exposed during the movement. Likewise the wedge is the one you want to use when you are moving and you fear both flanks could be exposed during movement. All this of course in dictated by the terrain you are moving on.
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Post by herosrest on Apr 21, 2019 17:15:27 GMT
Gerry, is Gerry Schultz, a considerable battle student familiar with the valley fight and Custer around MTC and DC. I quoted him badly in giving his assessment of Roe and Curly's account. I offered a thinking piece based in little known info from Hutchison's research into Curtis's work. Thanks to QC for his thoughts. If you want to enjoy a focused read about one bit of LBH done very well, Enjoy these 8-10 pages.
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azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
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Post by azranger on Apr 22, 2019 3:27:40 GMT
There is limited egress from MTC because of deep gully erosion and bluffed up banks on the north side of MTC. On my map below is where a horse can go. The blue line although ridable would eliminate going to the Luce site. Any line that has to cross that extra drainage would mean they rode east and north of the easier route which is the yellow line I rode with my Crow friend.
He can also take us to Curley view points and he took me to them last year. You have to see how deep the MTC drainage is east of Middle Coulée junction to understand where a horse can go.
As far as my gray line it could easily go up to the Calhoun Area and rejoin with Custer if we throw the Indians accounts, Maguire map, and the markers especially those on both sides of Deep Ravine and close to the river crossing.
I am willing to loan my GPS to anyone that wants to ride a different route and present it to us.
For Tom : the drainage reach in MTC from Cedar to Middle is much worse then at the junction of MTC and MTF. There are straight walls in both ingress and egress along with quick sand in the standing water. There is a Privates account that most reject where he states he was sent back and jumped something like what I see in MTC. He said he couldn't believe his horse jumped it. I think maybe a horse could jump if it was a great jumper but if you are short you smack in the bank like Evil Knievel.
Regards
Steve
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azranger
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Ranger
Posts: 1,824
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Post by azranger on Apr 22, 2019 3:55:04 GMT
Looking up MTC, you can see how deep coulee branches off to the left. The ground seems rather undulating between the two features, but google maps can give you a false impression of the terrain.
Great pic Ian
deep 2.bmp (2.39 MB)
Trying to get your picture here. In your picture we can see the water in the dirt tank to the right. Below that is where we climb up to Luce. You can also see a line which is the blue line on my working map. About the middle of the line it turns to the bottom and toward the MTF area. If you continue to the left you go through NC and into Deep Coulée near the Calhoun area. You ride right through the artifact site for NC.
You can also see the Butler Marker area as you head to the bottom of the picture. I am reasonably sure that you need to ride through Luce and Nye Cartwright to be in the correct area.
The gray horse route has fewer artifacts and you can see Butler site which has a great field of view.
So the blue line on my map is part of the Real Bird ride and the ride with Chip Watts and it is on NC. The yellow line on my map is what I rode with Faron and it went through Luce and continued on through NC and toward Deep Coulée.
Regards
Steve
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Post by yanmacca on Apr 22, 2019 9:16:23 GMT
Steve, I have tried to merge the two maps together, I don't know how correct this is, but it looks okay. It gives the viewer a better look at your routes.
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Apr 23, 2019 22:06:12 GMT
Nice job gentlemen.
Now I need some think time.
Cheers
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Apr 23, 2019 22:18:43 GMT
Would a movement along the blue line be visible from the village?
Cheers
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