mac
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Post by mac on Apr 16, 2019 12:42:38 GMT
If we go back to Yan's map with the heavy blue and yellow lines for reference, picture this: The JSIT map shows Custer coming into Calhoun hill from the east and Indians to the bottom left of the map. These would have been the Indians harassing the column where the W action occurred. Custer goes with the blue line maneuver element, but instead of following the road route, as Yan's blue line does, he maneuvers in the bottom of deep coulee, swinging around the left of his company or companies that are shooting on the W, and since Custer is maneuvering to the west of the W, the hostiles must be east of the W, answering the question of which way the soldiers at the W were firing. Now as Custer comes around the left of the W the hostiles on the east side withdraw further east, back toward where 212 now is. Custer calls the engaged units back to his location and they all proceed up to Calhoun hill via Henryville or thereabouts to approach BR as per JSIT's map. The map Yan posted shows how the drainages meet at about the point where Henryville is, and if the hostiles involved in the W fight had tried to break off by going down the east side drainage, they would have run headlong into Custer, which may have been what Custer was hoping for. It is a classic fire and maneuver that would have turned into an envelopment had the Indians gone that way. Instead, since they went back east, they escaped being caught between two units, so Custer pulls all five companies back together to resume the original plan of hitting the village from the north. I think this scenario answers the question of whether or not some or all of Custer's companies went near ford B, and allows for Martini to be within 600 yards of ford B, and still allows all 5 companies to be at Calhoun hill for the move to ford D, and also why there are few to no battle relics close to ford B. What do you all think of this? The Indians that went east were probably the same ones shown on JSIT's map that are north of Custer as he moves up to Calhoun hill. This would also make sense as the Indians with Wolf Tooth were doing a series of hit and runs and were not strong enough in numbers to become decisively engaged until much later, when Custer was down at ford D. If I were in tanks, engaging an enemy at the W, I would leave a unit on the W to keep the enemy under fire, while I maneuvered the rest of my tanks in deep coulee to flank the enemy on the W. The low ground of the coulee provide concealment for the maneuver element. Using the area the road now exists on (blue line) would be a tactical no-no. This is a fascinating proposition which does indeed put a force moving down closer to the river for a sensible tactical purpose. The force does not actually go to the river as Colt points out. To consider this theory we need to completely expunge the theories that put Custer at Ford B confronting the village with various wings operating, these are just useless distractions and not actual evidence of anything. Similarly we need to be skeptical of accounts from late after the battle. I am mindful of an account that said some Indians (women?) saw cavalry coming down MTC (language matters here so the exact account is needed) and they rushed back to the village with that news. This was after Reno had attacked and so could time out at about this move Colt suggests.
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mac
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Post by mac on Apr 16, 2019 12:52:28 GMT
I am happy with the fact that Wolftooth's band posed a threat to the east. I suspect there was perhaps a smaller group to the west that was being a nuisance by sneaking closer and putting a few shots into the cavalry; not threat so much as a nuisance. These are what I have seen before in the archaeology and are the traces Ian referenced in his annotated finds map earlier on page 5. Cheers
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Post by yanmacca on Apr 16, 2019 15:28:42 GMT
What are the differences between a wide sweep to clear MTC and the left flank of the advance along Luce etc. And the sweep what Harrington was alleged to have made to sweep in an arc off battle ridge and force any rogue elements away from the Calhouns right?
Was this a tactic from the Upton's cavalry manual? Even a mounted Cavalry charge by 35-40 troopers, would be enough to deter large amounts of irregulars from encroaching, they would simply scarper out of the way, rather than hold their ground.
Scary stuff armed men on horseback, especially if all you have is hand held weapons and bows.
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Post by quincannon on Apr 16, 2019 15:56:54 GMT
If I am understanding your first question correctly Ian - No one was trying to sweep Medicine Tail Coulee clear of anyone. If we are speculating correctly here those using MTC were using it as a travel corridor around Luce Ridge and the rest, the one company was trying to engage and drive away Wolf Tooth ON the ridges.
If it was Harrington, which I am starting to question, as anyone should without positive proof, his identified body, I do not know what he was doing when he came off Battle Ridge, and neither does anyone else. A sweep by mounted cavalry that ultimately stops and dismounts on FF Ridge, looks just like mounted cavalry moving into position and dismounting on FF Ridge to cover Company L's right flank does it not? If anyone sees any difference in the two visually please enlighten me. I am not nearly as aware of things before I have had my coffee, than after.
One thing about scarpering out of the way Ian, and not hold their ground. If it looks to easy, it probably is not. Never dismiss the irregular. They can be just as combat worthy as the Coldstream Guards, only with a lousy tailor.
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Post by yanmacca on Apr 16, 2019 16:11:38 GMT
That was the general consensus Chuck, that this sweep took place, no one ever questioned it then and that is why I said ‘alleged’, as we question all the so-called answers from long ago.
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Post by quincannon on Apr 16, 2019 16:42:26 GMT
I assume you are still on Harrington and those with him?
It was once a general consensus that the earth was flat. Columbus questioned it. As you say, we should question everything. Well maybe not who is buried in Grant's Tomb, but nearly everything else.
It may have been a sweep. It may have been deploying on L's flank. It may have been intended to be both. It may have had no other intention than trying to get the hell out of that trap that failed. Knowledge of intentions died with the senior most person present.
Again, this latter is one of my great piss off points, with the Sainted Ones. If those who preface every statement with I know what so and so was doing, thinking, or intending, understood that they make fools of themselves every time they do it, it would be a far better world, and a far more interesting field of study. On the other hand those who say I think, I speculate, I imagine, before they go any further along, could still get their point across, and reserve for themselves the freedom to be wrong, if more, better, or conclusive contradictory evidence should come to light.
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Apr 16, 2019 17:30:36 GMT
And I am in agreement that Middle is the most probable route. What I was getting at though is you had guides that have lived long or grew up on that property, and they are aware of all of its terrain mysteries. Put yourself in the position though of a first time rider on that ground with no guides, and the stress of battle. My inclination would be that there would be both hesitation and more than a few missteps, which is something you do not have to worry about with more experience on the terrain and aided by a guide. Ultimately what I want to do with posts like these, is to instill in anyone who reads us that there is such a thing as the fog and friction of battle, the unexpected. the nail that lost the show, that lost the horse, that dismounted the king, that lost the battle. Stuff you can not account, and make no allowances for. Truth be told that is my greatest heartburn with Wagner, no frigging FOG or FRICTION, no loose tolerance, the screws put on too tight. I think Tom had the best suggestion. The first time I rode with a Real Bird I looked across MTC on where I thought we could climb out. That is what we did. You can move further down MTC and when you climb out you are on the Weibert marked Indians sites.
As far as the three Indian groups JSIT shows two of the them. Wolf Tooth who left the village and went to Custer Creek and was recalled because Custer was closer. The second group is a mixture of Cheyenne and Sioux coming up MTC. The third group is the returning hunting party which Dixon talks about.
Regards
Steve
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Post by herosrest on Apr 16, 2019 17:31:04 GMT
If we go back to Yan's map with ...... Similarly we need to be skeptical of accounts from late after the battle. I am mindful of an account that said some Indians (women?) saw cavalry coming down MTC (language matters here so the exact account is needed) and they rushed back to the village with that news. This was after Reno had attacked and so could time out at about this move Colt suggests. Hostiles such as White Shield saw cavalry across the river from their lodges in the valley. Moving Robe Woman or Mary Crawler saw cavalry on the bluffs across the river, from her tepee, before Reno's gunfire commenced. Rain in the Face indicated on his map of the battle that women crossed the river to the east and ran back over when Custer's command were sighted and before he rode across the river from the camp. The surprise which existed in the hostile camp was not that cavalry attacked them. It was that the attack took place in the middle of the day. That means little until properly considered. Chief - there is a regiment of cavalry in camp 10 miles away. No problem - we are very many and they will try to creep up on us tonight. Wife........ bring me carrots. The presence of hostile hunting parties was noted by various of Terry's column and Bradley's scouts sighted buffalo wounded by arrows. So Bradley's Journal. I think that Matt Carrol may also mention this in his diary. There can be little doubt that hunting party's were out for food and raiding as was Wolf Tooth's intention. A little point about Wolf Tooth. He was among the Cheyenne who helped massacre Fetterman's command at Fort Phil Kearny in 1866 and therefore an experienced capable adult warrior in summer 1876.
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Apr 16, 2019 17:43:35 GMT
And I am in agreement that Middle is the most probable route. What I was getting at though is you had guides that have lived long or grew up on that property, and they are aware of all of its terrain mysteries. Put yourself in the position though of a first time rider on that ground with no guides, and the stress of battle. My inclination would be that there would be both hesitation and more than a few missteps, which is something you do not have to worry about with more experience on the terrain and aided by a guide. Ultimately what I want to do with posts like these, is to instill in anyone who reads us that there is such a thing as the fog and friction of battle, the unexpected. the nail that lost the show, that lost the horse, that dismounted the king, that lost the battle. Stuff you can not account, and make no allowances for. Truth be told that is my greatest heartburn with Wagner, no frigging FOG or FRICTION, no loose tolerance, the screws put on too tight. There are five identified Indian sites to the west of Luce and NC I see none on the artifact map to the east. I believe that Wolf Tooth was firing from a site that is near where we come out to Highway 212. He was going up Custer Creek to cut off Custer but Custer was ahead of where WT thought and he was called back.
I think the Dog Soldiers and some Sioux came up MTC. They used the terrain to fire from concealed position and put NOGO terrain features between them and the soldiers at Luce.
There is differences in the accounts between Elks and Dog Soldiers and Dog Soldiers like Tall Bull think JSIT gave credit to Elks. But JSIT does ID a group of Cheyenne and Sioux going after Custer.
Regards
Steve
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Post by quincannon on Apr 16, 2019 17:48:52 GMT
OK. so JSIT's map shows these two parties in addition to Wolf Tooth. JSIT does not tell us how many were in the party, if they presented a threat, what they were doing once they entered the battle space, or when in the sequence of things they entered the battle space. He only shows they were there and their approximate locations. More information is required before anything meaningful is derived from this. Firing at you does not automatically present a threat to you. It can, but there are far too many variables to say or conclude always. HR: Your second paragraph: I believe almost every word of it, and unlike some others, in other places think you are more often right than wrong. If what you write about the middle of the day is correct, concerning them not expecting it, they were a bunch of ignorant boobs, completely lacking in common sense, in not realizing the fundamental first rule of combat. --- Do not base your plans and actions on what you think the enemy will do, rather base them on what the enemy can do. Try getting some baby carrots, quarter them, and dip them in Thousand Island dressing, as a before dinner snack, while watching the news of the day. It won't make the news any better, but you won't care either.
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Post by herosrest on Apr 16, 2019 18:10:12 GMT
Dawn attacks and night raids was the way of the Plains. That is with moving on camps for ponies or captives. Battles between opposing tribes were rare and took the form of mounted charge and counter charge such as at Rosebud with Crook. The Cheyennes were less closed mouth about fighting Crook and those who wish to can compare the Cheyenne record to that of military reports and accounts. The Fightng Cheyennes McCarthy
Afterthough - Wolftooth, for example, was going out looking for trouble. Eagle Elk (sworn brother of High Horse) THE SUN was already high and heat shimmered across the valley as a small scouting party rode into the Hunkpapa camp circle at the south end of the village. They had been out for several days, watching the continued retreat of the Gray Fox and his troops to the south, and so approached the camp from the up-river end. Because of throbbing victory drums in the village, buffalo were scarce in the vicinity. The scouts had been seeking game while they kept an eye on the Gray Fox, but, other than a small band of pronghorn up the valley, they had sighted nothing. Their leader, Eagle Elk, guessed the buffalo herds had been frightened away by soldiers somewhere in the country, but now he was anxious to report to the chiefs and let other scouts take over the futile search for game. Eagle Elk was an Ogalala and, at twenty-five, a veteran warrior and skillful hunter. His prowess as a scout had earned him the reputation of a top specialist. But even he had little inkling that morning that a column of soldiers was approaching the Little Big Horn from the east. - This is from David Humphreys Miller who did meet and interview these guys. There is a mixed message overall because trouble was expected despite the rebuff of Crook and there were wise old men in camp that day advising the fighters that something might happen.
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Post by quincannon on Apr 16, 2019 18:21:39 GMT
Dawn attacks and night raids are the way of the soldier HR, any soldier, any time, any place, and throughout recorded history.
The wise soldier knows that dawn gives the attacker a good chance of success using BMNT for those final preparations, and with using such techniques as attack from out of the rising sun.
Night is the difference, giving a small force a decent chance for success against a larger force, as does rain, fog, snow, and traversing inhospitable terrain.
The lesson is nothing can be taken for granted. At the moment you feel most safe, that is the very moment you are most vulnerable.
There is a very big difference is saying - THEY WON'T, and saying THEY CAN'T..They won't is for losers. They can't is when you are always alert and have done your battle space examination homework.
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Post by herosrest on Apr 16, 2019 22:36:39 GMT
Grant was incredibly fortunate that you were not in charge of those Cheyenne warriors.
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Post by quincannon on Apr 17, 2019 0:32:15 GMT
Have you ever heard of Pilate's Bodyguard HR?
So the story goes some Frog outfit claimed to be so old that they guarded the Tomb of Christ. Some Brit outfit, I think the Scot's Guards, said that if they had been guarding the place, Christ would have not gotten away.
Maybe the Scots were right, no one should have gotten away, so maybe as you suggest Grant was fortunate.
On a lighter but much more salient note HR. Your observations on the other board, regarding an attack on infrastructure, was spot on. Ten good men, who could dare and win, could have destroyed the Sioux and Cheyenne Nations in one nights work, probably without a casualty on either side. Don't dare tell them on the other board that, or two things will happen. You will destroy their fantasy of glory, and they will think you loony, but we here know better. Please don't mess up their playground. They have worked so hard to warp people's minds.
It does not matter what side you ever find yourself on HR, the side that innovates, and with their tactics dare, will win. Be that Indian or cavalry, Marine or insurgent, bully or the bullied, you out think before you ever entertain out fighting .
Gettysburg, the movie is on tonight, so I must go, watching in delight in how R. E Lee pissed away his best chance to beat the Union Army by decisive maneuver, rather embracing blind, stupid OLD THINK.
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dave
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Post by dave on Apr 17, 2019 3:41:24 GMT
QC thank you so much for thinking of me and having the books saved up for me. Unfortunately the Director of Travel has decided that my proposal of Montana in June loses out to her desire to see the Ark in Kentucky on our way to Michigan for Fall Foliage. I am of course delighted with her decision and cheerfully look forward to touring the Ark, the Creation Museum and seeing dead colored leaves. But I may be able to sneak off to the Great Lakes Museum, though I admit she did wrinkle her nose at the suggestion. Perhaps one of you military veterans may have plan I can use to gain the Great Lakes Museum jaunt?
Seriously, QC I am very touched you have some books for me. I am very appreciative of your thoughtfulness. Regards Dave
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