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Post by yanmacca on Apr 9, 2019 19:31:37 GMT
Here is a map of the area in question from private PMs, regarding movements in the area between Calhoun Hill and Cedar Coullee, it will be used as a starting point and maybe be amended as time goes on.
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Post by quincannon on Apr 9, 2019 21:33:20 GMT
I think we should start by locating Middle Coulee, MTC Ford (B), and the elongated W. I am sure Steve would be happy to verify all three. Once we are oriented we can go on to the maneuver graphics.
For clarity once we start the maneuver graphics mark the route down Middle Coulee to the W in yellow representing the first two companies in column to the point where they are engaged. Then when I get oriented, and I am far from that with this map at present, we can mark the bypass and haul ass force in blue. Eventually the two forces will join probably in Deep Coulee near the base of Calhoun Hill. The exact spot that they join will be east of Calhoun Hill proper, and I think that consistent with JSIT who tells his tale from that point onward.
Colt please follow this closely, for there is only so much that I remember about what you folks do and how you do it.
Once everything is set we can proceed.
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mac
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Post by mac on Apr 10, 2019 0:15:25 GMT
Looks like fun! I am away for a couple of days.
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Post by yanmacca on Apr 10, 2019 7:19:25 GMT
Enjoy yourself Mac. Chuck here is middle coulee and a bad attempt to locate the W;
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Post by quincannon on Apr 10, 2019 15:01:52 GMT
Works for me.
Extend the yellow line to the W. Start a blue line where the yellow line crosses MTC, and trace it north to where you pick up the park road, and follow the path of the park road to just below Calhoun Hill. THEN take the yellow line from where it stopped at the W and draw it along the ridge tops until it joins the blue line.
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Post by yanmacca on Apr 10, 2019 16:03:08 GMT
I have tried to emulate what you said Chuck, I thought I would take the yellow line along the same path that I think Wolftooth has the column moving, down a coulee, across deep coulee and up to Calhoun Ridge.
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Post by quincannon on Apr 10, 2019 17:04:28 GMT
That's good thinking Ian, better than mine. Of course there would be a little pursuit to shoo them away. Well played.
That is exactly what I am looking for. Can the blue and yellow lines be made brighter. Ny old eyes ain;t what they used to be.
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Post by yanmacca on Apr 10, 2019 19:55:39 GMT
Try this one, I used a different app this time;
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Post by quincannon on Apr 10, 2019 21:33:42 GMT
YES YES YES
OK The legend:
The Blue elongated W is the approximate location of the skirmish on the L-N-C Ridge Complex
The yellow line represents the main body (5 companies) moving down middle coulee, until the blue line splits off, from then on one company, possibly two engaging, then pursuing, until meeting up with the main body again.
The blue line represents the main body (-) (three or four companies bypassing the skirmish on the ridge, and continuing north.
One can easily see where Martini's 600 yards is very possible. Sometimes you cannot determine these things with the mind's eye, but become readily apparent when graphically displayed.
Great job as always Ian.
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Post by yanmacca on Apr 11, 2019 10:57:58 GMT
That move Chuck, is similar to the flank guard scenario I posted up a while back. Having said that, the main column looks like it is avoiding that ford as if it is toxic.
I would like to add that once Custer reach MTC, he could see that he is starting to bring attention upon himself, looking down along MTC and the maybe the ford too, would show that this is beginning to look like a dangerous place, don’t forget he probably hasn’t even seen the full extent of the village yet, so it seems obvious to me that if he intends to move beyond that ford that he is leaving his left flank open to all and sundry.
There is two points I would like to bring up, point one; Custer would have no firm grasp of what lay ahead after he went right down either middle or cedar coulees, what he saw when he emerged out into MTC, would be unknown and I guess that he realizes this and acts accordingly, if he doesn’t then he soon will when he sees scattered bands of Indians. Point two; any move north past ford B would not be on the table until he sees a reason to go there, so he had to be in a position to see the extent of the village and any exodus north, which is something he could not see if he was in MTC, so I would place Custer on the high ground with the main body along N/C/L, otherwise he wouldn't be able to see any exodus or even the northern end of the village and if he sees no reason to go north, would he go there anyway?
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Post by quincannon on Apr 11, 2019 14:26:17 GMT
Well a flanking movement and a flank guard are similar, not in purpose, but in possible routes chosen for either exercise.
I don't believe he thought he was bringing attention to himself in MTC particularly, but he certainly would have thought that when his leading elements engaged at the W. No he could not see the full extent of the village where Middle intersects with MTC, and I still believe his intention was to gain the L-N-C high ground and generally follow the course of the yellow line northward. The engagement brought a halt to that idea. and for two probable reasons.
a. The engagement was the attention he did not want.
b. The engagement had he chosen to use all his force, the five hammers instead of one or two, would halt the progress he had made so far, and risk passing the initiative off to the enemy. At this stage he did not know how fast mass could be brought against a stationary formation.
To retain the initiative, he had to divorce stealth and marry speed. The flanking route would give him that speed. Now the route may have been in the basin of the coulee as depicted or hug the lowest part of the ridges on the east side of the coulee, until either one intersected with the park road where it starts its turn up toward Calhoun Hill. The blue lines you have drawn on the map give to reader/viewer the idea in either case. In WWII and after we often see flanks of mobile forces left open believing correctly that the speed, the velocity of the attack, will so unhinge the opposition that flank protection is not necessary in the short run.
I differ a bit on your two points. Either continuing on the ridge tops or following the depicted flank route would end up showing him the extent of the village. He got a closer view on the flank route, and this ties in with a favorite theme of Steve, the 600 yards from the ford where Martini says he was sent back. It very well could be that this was Custer's final decision point regarding Ford B.
I can see the thought process being something like this. ----- Custer wants to follow the ridge tops and gather his battalion together at some point on the northern most suitable place in the L-N-C ridge complex. He would then avoid having to assemble the battalion for his intended attack in the coulee, and have the advantage of attacking down hill all the way to the ford (B).
The engagement at the W foils that initial plan, so he takes the flanking (blue) route. As he comes abreast of Ford B, but east and a fair distance away, the size and extent of the village become more clear to him. He sends Martini back to bring Benteen into the fight, but also for Benteen to provide a covering force for the trains. Martini reports that the Indians are running, based upon, both Wolf Tooth and the boys, and the dust clouds heading north, which may be either warriors or non-combatants. Dust is dust, who knows. All Martini knows and can report is someone running northward. He goes back and somewhere along the way his horse sustains a slight wound. From where I have no clue.
Custer makes his decision. Ford B is, .or soon will be, a dry hole. Reassembly and continue north is then his only option by default if he wants to bring the "runners" to battle and box in the village from the north. Custer at this point still does not have any knowledge of Reno's problems.
One side bar here: On the black board there has been recent discussion of when Boston joined his brothers. The further north that the point where Martini left is located, the less chance there is for Boston to show up much before Custer is well north of Calhoun Hill. All this of course assumes that Martini passed him on the way back (speaking to him or not) and was not mistaken in whom he saw.
NOW ANYONE WHO READS THIS BEWARE: It is speculation based upon good tactics and adherence to techniques and procedures. It is still speculation and should not be taken for anything other than that.
PS: I don't think we can assume that Company E was in the middle literally, meaning the third company in line, out of five. It may mean that exactly of course, but it is much more probable to me that Company E was somewhere in second, third, or fourth position, still in the middle between the lead and trail companies. It is also safe to assume, being in concert with best procedural practices that Custer himself would accompany the flank movement, the main body, and not concern himself directly with the leading company's engagement.
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Apr 12, 2019 5:19:43 GMT
This is from my work in progress map. The blue line is what I rode with Chip Watts and James Real Bird. The yellow line is from when I rode this last summer with Faron Iron my Crow Friend. All start at the same point across from Middle Coulée but Faron turned right and we ended right on top of the Running W. The red line is the W from the artifact map. When you are there it is easy to see how the terrain shapes the the W.
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Apr 12, 2019 5:34:08 GMT
Ian
The yellow line need to move to the other side of Middle Coulee which wider and enters MTC at a point where you can almost go straight across. You can not ride across MTC following the yellow line. It is deeply eroded and would force anyone riding SSR or Cedar to move downstream to cross. The other side for the egress is clearly visible horseback an all persons I have ridden with use it. They don't ride with each other and James has does not know the battle history but does know how to ride in that country.
When you cross over the loaf just below Weir there is cut that is used by horses and would be there so that Custer could move closer without being observed. It would be hard to ride down the right side since it is steeper. The left side is wider and you could ride several abrest. I would think the left would be preferred since you can ride below the military crest and more concealed. On the right side you would be exposed to fire at distance from the ridge on the left side.
Regards
Steve
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Apr 12, 2019 5:54:21 GMT
The green line is route from Cedar Coulée crossing to Middle Coulée and you see it almost straight across from the egress routes. I believe the split was made right there with the gray horse moving down MTC. I suspect F and HQ with them in order for Martin to be sent back approximately 600 yards from MTC.
Also on this map is a gray line heading north. I started at 600 yards from MTF and moved north through the markers. It lines up approximately with the Maguire map. So from the ingress into MTC from Middle Coulée a short gray line would complete the split.
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Apr 12, 2019 6:23:48 GMT
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