|
Post by deadwoodgultch on Sept 4, 2018 21:19:34 GMT
Steve, when you get back and if you are bored enough to read my above long post, see if Will wants to collaborate with me on the book! Regards, Tom Tom
I will but it is going to be after I get back from Maine. I worked Labor Day weekend on Lake Powell and it takes a toll on this old body. Getting ready today to got to Indiana for 9 days. Then flying to Boston and driving to Maine. I ordered some good Indian source books and will look forward to reading them.
Regards
Steve
Don't pester him, I am not writing squat, I was tongue in cheek on both posts!
Regards, Tom
|
|
mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
|
Post by mac on Sept 4, 2018 23:21:53 GMT
What makes sense is that Custer wanted Benteen to insert himself between the packs and Reno retreating (as Custer knew/expected he must) down the valley back to Ford A. From Ian's post from RCOI; Benteen himself said it all. “The Indians could not get to the pack train without coming by us.” Q: “It was your duty also to bring up the packs?” A: “Not till I got the order through Trumpeter Martin. It was my duty after I received that order.” Read more: greatsiouxwar1876.proboards.com/thread/733/any-make-sense?page=4#ixzz5QAqLZuVx The nonsense people go on with about, bring the ammunition, bring the men, cross major terrain features with the packs, ignore Reno, is all tactical rubbish. Custer was intent on protecting his packs and supporting Reno by having Benteen return to Ford A with the packs. Cheers
|
|
mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
|
Post by mac on Sept 4, 2018 23:26:39 GMT
Speaking of not making sense, which we are.....
Does it make any sense at all that any soldier, much less a trained officer, would think it a good idea to ride into Calhoun Coulee with no support and high ground on both flanks, and then dismount in front of Greasy Grass ridge?
Lots have published it!
Cheers
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Sept 5, 2018 1:11:37 GMT
This one doesn't, but of course I am Infantry minded, and as such have an affinity for high ground and a loathing for low.
|
|
|
Post by deadwoodgultch on Sept 5, 2018 20:24:47 GMT
Well let's look at this in a different way.
1.Custer goes to the head waters of the Tongue, as per orders. Finds the Rosebud battlefield, then turns to the LBH. What happens?
2.Benteen follows his orders and continues to the LBH valley as ordered, besides Martini never finds him. What happens?
3. How would this make a commander look? How do those who worship at the GAC alter answer the above? Do they avoid deep/critical thinking?
Regards, Tom
|
|
|
Post by deadwoodgultch on Sept 5, 2018 20:32:56 GMT
Chuck, in infiltrating and scouting you avoid silhouetting on high ground, especially infantry. However your point about high ground still holds, witness the picture I sent you south of the battlefield about 4 years ago. I could view the valley and LSH and it would have been a blood bath to attack me from the north, east, or west.
Regards, Tom
|
|
mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
|
Post by mac on Sept 5, 2018 23:40:21 GMT
Well let's look at this in a different way.
2.Benteen follows his orders and continues to the LBH valley as ordered, besides Martini never finds him. What happens?
Regards, Tom
Really good one Tom. People say Benteen dawdled. If he was intent on dawdling then why was he already on the way back when Matrini found him? Yes what would the battlefield look like post battle if Benteen kept going and Reno did not have him to fall back on....how would we explain that one? Cheers
|
|
dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
|
Post by dave on Sept 6, 2018 1:34:39 GMT
Mac If you keep on making sensible comments and intelligent observations you may find yourself under attack by the morons of the Custer Brigade! To think that a professional combat experienced soldier, would decide on the only reasonable interpretation of Cooke's poorly written order/memo/note/injunction, wow what a epiphany!
I am enjoying the posts in this thread as are many others I am sure. Regards David
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Sept 6, 2018 20:39:46 GMT
Agree Tom.
Scouts go where they must go, but high ground is the best for seeing. The trick is that the essence of scouting is seeing without being seen.
Infiltration uses the best available routes, high or low, but when infiltrating anywhere infiltration depends largely on concealment, woods and the like.
Sky lining is always a no-no, so the wise man stays off the ridge and hill tops and stays on the military crest. Even the enemy side of the military crest offers possibilities to the moving force, as long an they move slow, avoid giving off a signature, and stay quiet. The enemy side is always second choice, and should be avoided if there is another way.
I recall a picture taken from the high ground west of Ford A. If that is the one, I fully agree on its defensive possibilities, the configuration of ground often prayed for by the defender, but seldom scene.
Dave, Monday morning quarterbacks, especially when their team loses, look for scapegoats, the but for, of why they lost. Two things can then be said, Most of the MMQ's never played a goddamned day in their lives. Those on the field, who know both winning and losing, are, in TR's words, in the arena, doing the best they can, which is more than can be said for the no good son of a bitch that dares to be critical of them..
|
|
|
Post by deadwoodgultch on Sept 6, 2018 21:43:56 GMT
|
|
colt45
First Lieutenant
Posts: 439
|
Post by colt45 on Sept 7, 2018 0:28:38 GMT
Yes, military crest is still in use to the best of my knowledge.
|
|
colt45
First Lieutenant
Posts: 439
|
Post by colt45 on Sept 7, 2018 0:43:23 GMT
Here is another little puzzler for contemplation: What if Crook had not tried to move north so fast, and instead had brought his supply trains with him on his way to the Rosebud. Had he done that, he could have sustained operations after the Rosebud battle, as he would have all his extra ammo, food, supplies, etc. with him, and he would not have been forced to withdraw back to Goose Creek.
Had he stayed in the combat area after the Rosebud fight with all his supply trains with him, he could have continued on to the LBH area, and by the time of the 25th, he might very well have been in the immediate area of NFRC or ford A. This would have forced Custer to coordinate with Crook rather than launching his ill-fated jaunt up the bluffs with an inferior force, given the size of the village.
I doubt very seriously if Crook would have sent a battalion up the east side of the bluffs. He probably would have done what most of us would have done, that is, send an advance guard toward the village to develop the situation, then send the main body to the west of the village to exploit what the advance guard created. That advance guard probably would have been all 12 companies of the 7th, with all of Crook's force serving as the main body.
Had Crook not screwed up by leaving most of his supplies behind in order to move faster, and had been in the vicinity of LBH on the 25th, we might not be discussing the battle of LBH, as it surely would have turned out much differently. That is the big mystery: Why would an officer of Crook's caliber and experience decide to leave behind most of his supplies and trains, and mount infantry on mules just so he could move faster. He surely must have known that action would limit his ability to remain in the combat area.
|
|
mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
|
Post by mac on Sept 7, 2018 2:15:16 GMT
What a good thought. Speed at this time is, it seems, everyone's goal. To catch the Indians?
Cheers
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Sept 7, 2018 3:53:04 GMT
Colt: Oddly enough I have seen an answer to your question in a novel by the late Terry C. Johnson, all of which are damned good historical fiction. Unfortunately he died before he could complete the series. Never verified this with a map study but:
Crook established his base on Goose Creek, because he could not be sure of an adequate water supply further north that he felt he could secure.
Again, don't take this to the bank, because I don't know if it's in the history part, or the fiction part.
|
|
colt45
First Lieutenant
Posts: 439
|
Post by colt45 on Sept 7, 2018 13:14:04 GMT
QC, Being unsure of a water source further north is a good reason to keep Goose Creek as a base of operations, but then again, he still should have taken more of his supply with him when leaving Goose Creek. Long range scouting with a small team or two in advance of his force moving north could have both revealed the hostiles and found a water source. We know he had scouts with him as they saved his bacon at the Rosebud by providing about a 15 minute warning of the impending attack.
He also should have known if there were hostiles to his north, then there also had to be water to support their village and families, so the odds of finding water for his force would be fairly good. An LRP or two way out front would have reduced his risk of taking most of his supply with him. Now maybe he had LRPs out front. If so, even more reason to have taken his supply train with him.
|
|