benteen
First Lieutenant
"Once An Eagle
Posts: 406
|
Post by benteen on Sept 3, 2018 20:05:58 GMT
This thread and the thought behind it, was a long time in coming. For me "Does it make sense" is the most important factor in my determining my opinions or theories. More important than artifacts or Warrior or Soldier testimony. I base my opinions as follows......
Does it make sense.....If it doesnt make any sense to me I disregard it.
Can it make sense......Often there are theories that differ. But, sometimes to me both theories could make sense
Which theory makes the most sense....After giving due study to both of them, I will go with the one that makes the most sense to me
Be Well Dan
|
|
benteen
First Lieutenant
"Once An Eagle
Posts: 406
|
Post by benteen on Sept 3, 2018 20:17:56 GMT
Board member Benteen actually would have been Weir, French, Ryan, Martini, or Windolph can't get a full read. Benteen would choose Windolph for longevity and as a MOH recipient he could send his son to WP. Ok, ok you asked and I had particularly strong coffee. Regards, Tom Tom, MARTINI ! Just because some of my posts are gibberish and I cant spell worth a darn, doesnt mean I dont speak the English language Be Well Dan
|
|
benteen
First Lieutenant
"Once An Eagle
Posts: 406
|
Post by benteen on Sept 3, 2018 20:40:31 GMT
Just as a follow up to my last post I want to make it clear that when I say it doesnt make sense, I mean if it doesnt make sense to me. What doesnt make sense to me may make total sense to someone else.
Be Well Dan
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Sept 4, 2018 4:34:11 GMT
OK, let me set the stage for the next does not make sense.
1) Benteen is back along the trail, having just rejoined that trail from conducting a mandated wild goose chase, which he, on his own authority aborted.
2) He is positioned in front of the pack trains, and ahead by an unknown distance, but one that can be best expressed in miles not meters.
3) Martini arrives with the note, written by Cooke, and saying nothing very definitive, unless you consider come on, be quick, big village, bring packs X 2, definitive.
4) As he approaches Ford A he hears the sound of an engagement to his front but still in the valley.
5) He knows Martini approached his column from the area of the bluffs, and knows there is a river between the bluffs and the valley proper.
6 From what he can determine from the note Custer wants the regiment to reunite. After a few invectives including I told that dumb son of a bitch not to divide, he decides to follow his orders and bring his battalion back into the fold.
SO THE QUESTION IS - Where would, given only the information Benteen has, he expect to find Custer? And a followup - Would any other place make sense to you, and if so why?
|
|
|
Post by deadwoodgultch on Sept 4, 2018 11:46:40 GMT
If you don't see the scouts on the hills, you at least cross the river to make a show, hoping to pull the some of the mass of Indians attacking, what you believe is the rest of the command in retreat. You send a messenger to the pack train before you cross the river to inform them first. Before you would fully engage you would want to be sure you have the packs in hand and their extra shooters. But, alas you do see those scouts.
1 Maybe the valley, Martini probably told me where he left Custer, but he could have attempted a two pronged attack. That would have been my first assumption. You must remember here I am not familiar with the terrain. Beyond that I have no earthly idea.
2 In the midst of the big village(probably dead) or in retreat north towards Terry(more likely).
Those two would be my assumptions. There it is some derivative of the word assume, we know what that means.
Regards, Tom
|
|
colt45
First Lieutenant
Posts: 439
|
Post by colt45 on Sept 4, 2018 12:31:22 GMT
At the point where Martini met Benteen, Benteen would have to assume Custer was where the firing was, in the valley. Once the scouts tell him to come up the bluffs, and he sees the trail dividing toward ford A and the bluffs, his dilemma begins. Going up the bluffs doesn't make sense to him (his testimony, if I remember correctly) and his first idea is to secure the packs before crossing at ford A. At this point it would make sense to believe that Custer is either in the village or on the left flank of Reno, having crossed the river to scatter the pony herd and exploit what Reno started.
Absent the scouts telling him to come up the bluffs, I think he would have crossed at ford A to get into the action.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Sept 4, 2018 17:28:59 GMT
I concur with both of you. Based only upon the information Benteen has at hand he would expect Custer's battalion to be in the valley and engaged, and in the absence of any circumstance prohibiting (like scouts motioning him onto the bluffs) would have crossed the river after making sure the trains were secure, and come up behind Reno in the valley expecting that Reno had either joined with Custer already or that junction was eminent.
The part of this that makes no sense to me is that all those who hold to the conventional theory build part of that theory on the expectation that Benteen and the packs would join Custer on the bluffs. We have them not only expecting it, but many excuse leaving three companies behind and static waiting for him. This does not make sense.
The note says "Come on". The conventional says that the meaning of "Come on" is come to me. I agree with that completely. Custer wanted Benteen up, and the packs both secure and available pronto. But Custer wanted Benteen where Custer intended to be, not where he was, and leaves the divining of where Custer intended to be completely in Benteen's hands. Benteen would have made the logical choice, and that would not be to ascend the bluffs after waiting for the trains. He would cross over the River Jordan to smite the Amalekites.
|
|
benteen
First Lieutenant
"Once An Eagle
Posts: 406
|
Post by benteen on Sept 4, 2018 17:31:51 GMT
Q/C,
Based on what we know or think we know, I would conclude the following. From what Martini said when asked about the Warriors "They skedadling" or infact running away, and based on the note which mentioned the packs twice. Also with Knipe saying he had a message for the pack trains, I believe it would make sense that Benteen would believe that 8 companies of US Cavalry had successfully assaulted an Indian village and Custer wanted him and the supplies to come up so he could continue what would now be a persuit. However......
There is one thing that bothers me. I am sorry but I cant find my Bible (RCOI) so I dont know the exact words, but somewhere either Martini told Benteen or Benteen said that Martini told him that "By now Major Reno had assaulted the village and was killing the Warriors etc"" or something to that effect" to me that would have raised a red flag. If all 8 companies had successfully assaulted a village a soldier would say Gen Custer had assaulted the village etc NOT Reno had done it. Of course this is hindsight but if I was Benteen I would have said "What do you mean Reno had attacked, where is Custer" He may have found out by that question that Custer had once again divided his command.
Again this is just a thought and is of course hindsight.
Be Well Dan
|
|
benteen
First Lieutenant
"Once An Eagle
Posts: 406
|
Post by benteen on Sept 4, 2018 17:51:40 GMT
The note says "Come on". The conventional says that the meaning of "Come on" is come to me. I agree with that completely. Q/C, I am glad you said this. We have debated where Custer wanted Benteen to go. I have been firm in my belief that if my commander said "Come on, get up here" I would go directly to him. If he wanted me to go somewhere else he would say so. In the absence of him telling me to go somewhere else I would make a B line to his position. Be Well Dan
|
|
azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
Posts: 1,824
|
Post by azranger on Sept 4, 2018 18:47:31 GMT
Steve, when you get back and if you are bored enough to read my above long post, see if Will wants to collaborate with me on the book! Regards, Tom Tom
I will but it is going to be after I get back from Maine. I worked Labor Day weekend on Lake Powell and it takes a toll on this old body. Getting ready today to got to Indiana for 9 days. Then flying to Boston and driving to Maine. I ordered some good Indian source books and will look forward to reading them.
Regards
Steve
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Sept 4, 2018 18:58:07 GMT
If you are driving to Maine, be sure to treat yourself to a lobster at Warren's in Kittery, very near the Portsmouth Navy Yard (which is in Maine, not New Hampshire). That alone is worth the drive.
|
|
azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
Posts: 1,824
|
Post by azranger on Sept 4, 2018 19:03:03 GMT
The note says "Come on". The conventional says that the meaning of "Come on" is come to me. I agree with that completely. Q/C, I am glad you said this. We have debated where Custer wanted Benteen to go. I have been firm in my belief that if my commander said "Come on, get up here" I would go directly to him. If he wanted me to go somewhere else he would say so. In the absence of him telling me to go somewhere else I would make a B line to his position. Be Well Dan Here is my concern. Where did Custer expect to be when Benteen was doing his Come On? If Custer knew he would never cross the river then Benteen would follow up on the bluffs. I think Custer expected to cross the river and attack the Big Village. If Custer crosses to the other side of river Benteen's quickest route is crossing at Ford A with the pack train following. Our dilemma is that we know what Custer did do but we will never know where he intended to be when he sent Martin. I think his plan may have changed several times from when he sent Martin.
Benteen following Custer to Ford D with the pack train as compared to crossing at Ford A seems that the latter is more likely default. I know what it is like to climb out of MTC and Custer did not at the time he sent Martin. But the route he took straight across moving to Ford D should have resulted in another message to Benteen to don't come this as the pack train would not make it. Hopefully some will show up next year and we can look at the routes out of MTC and up to Luce. Also we can look at how far away from support Calhoun would be if the pack train enters MTC and attempts to go north.
Regards
Steve
|
|
azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
Posts: 1,824
|
Post by azranger on Sept 4, 2018 19:04:36 GMT
If you are driving to Maine, be sure to treat yourself to a lobster at Warren's in Kittery, very near the Portsmouth Navy Yard (which is in Maine, not New Hampshire). That alone is worth the drive. Added to my agenda
Thanks
Steve
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Sept 4, 2018 19:08:43 GMT
Perfectly reasonable to say Reno is assaulting the village as far as that goes. Perfectly reasonable to also say the Indians are withdrawing too based up the dust signature present in the valley. The problem is that when Martini left Custer was not yet engaged, or he (martini) would have said so. So Benteen can only determine that the place where Martini left Custer, was not the place Custer intended to be when he sent the note.
There is an old expression that states - "Anyone who rides to the sound of the guns, cannot be faulted for doing so". Benteen determined to ride directly to the only sound of guns he knew of, until that ride was overcome by events
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Sept 4, 2018 19:26:28 GMT
Here is some stuff from the RCOI, I copied this a number of years ago and I think it was from Fred's work as it has some additions, but everything in it is from the court room. • A mile from the tepee he met a sergeant [Kanipe] coming back with instructions for McDougall to “hurry up the packs.” He told the sergeant he thought the packs were about 7 miles back. • Q: “Can you state positively as to about where the advance of the pack train was when you met Major Reno?” A: “I can state positively [the pack train] was not in sight and to the best of my belief it was four miles and a half from the burning tepee to Major Reno’s position on the hill. The pack train was not in sight and therefore more than four and a half miles away.” 15. About another mile more he met TMP Martin with the message from Custer. Benteen estimated that to be about 2 miles from where Reno crossed the LBH. • Benteen estimated it was about 2 1/2 miles from the burning tepee where he met Martin. • He then stated it was half way between the burning tepee and Ford A. • Benteen also later stated the burning tepee was nearly 3 miles from Ford A. • Benteen thought it was around 3 p.m. [This seems like it might be St. Paul time, especially when compared to DeRudio’s timing.] • “… I asked him about this village. He said the Indians were all skedaddling, therefore there was less necessity for me going back for the packs.” • Benteen heard no firing when Martin arrived. • Benteen and his orderly were 400 to 500 yards in advance of most of his battalion when he met Martin. • Benteen denied sending Martin back to the packs. If Martin went there, he did so of his own accord. • CPT Weir was about 200 yards to Benteen’s rear. • Benteen waited for Weir to come up and then handed Weir the note. Neither man said anything about it. • It is clear from the testimony that both the court and Benteen felt the message from LT Cooke pertained to Benteen joining Custer. • When the rest of the command came up, Benteen ordered a trot. • Benteen did not consider the packs in danger, nor did he think it necessary to go back to them. “… The Indians could not get to the pack train without coming by us.” • Benteen was pressed by the Recorder about Custer believing Benteen could be found on the trail within “communicating” distance of the packs. Benteen’s response was: “[Custer] could not have possibly known where to have found me… within 10 or 15 miles. My going back there was providential or accidental or whatever you may be pleased to term it.” • Benteen also said Custer “would have known that I would come up” if he found no Indians. • Q: “It was your duty also to bring up the packs?” A: “Not till I got the order through Trumpeter Martin. It was my duty after I received that order.” 16. Benteen thought his mission was a “senseless order.” They had been “on the main trail of the Indians. There were plenty of them on that trail. We had passed through immense villages the preceding days and it was scarcely worthwhile hunting up any more. We knew there were eight or ten thousand Indians on the trail we were on.” • Benteen freely admitted that his action in returning to the main trail violated Custer’s instructions. • Benteen clearly regarding his mission as a waste of time. More than once he alluded to following the trail. 17. Again, Benteen rode on ahead, reaching Ford A. He saw an engagement down the valley, believing it to be the whole regiment. It was Benteen’s first sight of the LBH River. • His battalion did not go to Ford A with Benteen. 18. Benteen said he saw 12 or 13 men in skirmish line that was parallel to the river and appeared to have been beaten back. The Indians were constantly charging at these men. He believed the command to have been “thrashed” and did not think Ford A was a good place to cross. • “My impression from Trumpeter Martin was that the Indians were skedaddling. But my first sight of the fight showed that there was no skedaddling being done by the Indians, and I, of course, thought that was the whole command, and if it was the whole command, that it was whipped.” 19. Benteen then saw 3 or 4 Indians some 400 to 500 yards off to his right. At first he thought they were hostile, but when he rode toward them he realized they were Crows. They said there was a “big ‘pooh poohing’ going on.” He then saw men on the hill—bluff—and immediately rode up there meeting Reno. 20. The only firing Benteen heard before arriving on Reno Hill was when he was at the ford and he thought that was about 2 miles away, obviously from the action he saw down the valley. • Benteen moved at a trot in joining Reno. He added that he moved at a trot the entire distance. • This was brought up again. Benteen told the Recorder he had a very fast-walking horse. The horse would move at a normal gait of 5 mph and everyone else had to trot to keep up. Benteen was ahead of his command all the way, sometimes as much as 400 or 500 yards. So, even when he was walking, his command was moving at a trot. 21. Benteen was asked if he could have joined Reno in the timber. His response was, he could have tried. • He also said he would not have tried if he did not have the packs. • Benteen said if he had tried to make the timber his “losses would have been very much greater than they were….” Benteen felt the 7 companies would have been wiped out. 22. Benteen saw the timber on the 28th and he told the court the beginning of the village was 600 to 800 yards from the woods. 23. Benteen thought the timber could have been held for 5 to 6 hours. He said early the next morning they would have all been killed. 24. In an extremely interesting exchange, Benteen was asked if he had joined Reno in the timber, would not that threat have helped Custer. Benteen replied, “It would not have made a particle of difference.”
25. As for the Indians who confronted Reno helping the ones in front of Custer, Benteen replied, “I don’t think they had any use for them down there though.”
This map is a good guide;
|
|