Does any of this make any sense

[quincannon]

Tom: I highly doubt that, as Dan says, you need, or ever needed baseball for your own sense of well being. It is the people that wrap their own life around what normal people look at as either an interesting subject or a hobby, that I find, well weird, and there is no other word for it. It is an addiction, not far removed from alcohol or drugs, that encompasses them.

I like, as you know, building model ships. With me it is an adjunct to my study of WWII naval history, and I spend a lot of time doing it. That said there is nary the day you will find me dressed in a sailor suit, running around the house singing "Yo Ho Ho and a bottle of rum".  I learn a few new curse words as a result of the hobby, and the finished product gives me some degree of satisfaction, but I can also easily put it down, and move on to other interests.

Mac: I suspect you are correct, and if so, under those circumstances, it becomes murder, not legitimate combat.

[dave]

Love is blind, is the mantra of those who believe GAC was not properly supported that dusty June day. How else can one explain away all the mistakes—-no need to list them—-and then blame Reno and Benteen for the disaster that befell the 7th?

Custerphiles see nothing, hear nothing and know nothing that he did wrong. That attitude can not be reasoned with so let them go into that gentle night.
Regards
David

[deadwoodgultch]

That was not a return like, though I do like it. Very nicely put and to the point.

Regards,
Tom

[yanmacca]

When I joined these boards, I had only one agenda and that was to try and find out why Custer never concentrated his regiment. I was appalled at how his five companies died in such piece meal fashion and without taking large numbers of their enemy with them.

I had no interest in Custer as a person or the others mainly because I don't do that sort of thing. I don't do heroes, I may admire someone for their achievements but I am sure as hell not going to worship them.

These was a lot of mistakes made that day, but that is how battles were fought in those days and given that the three main battalions were constantly out of sight of one and other, we will have breakdowns in communication, to put is simply 'balls ups' was the name of the game.

And it has always been these balls ups and the battalions in question that has interested me more then Custer the man or Reno, Benteen or Keogh, etc. etc.

[colt45]

I find it curious that the Army didn't really want to know what happened. They seemed disinterested in the RCOI and only held it at Reno's insistence. Instead they allowed the Custer myth to rule the day. And why didn't officers like Brisbin who had first hand knowledge about certain aspects of the campaign come forward and participate in the RCOI? It seems strange that the army was willing to let Reno take the blame for the disaster when clearly Custer was the one in command and the one responsible. That just doesn't make sense, even for the army of that day.

[mac]

Colt it was a conspiracy to stop Custer becoming POTUS!!!

Break out  the sailor suits and let's sing and dance a hornpipe!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBU0z3xdC0o


QC will lead!!

[deadwoodgultch]

Colt,

Two things here, they kept Capt. French away as well as Sgt, Ryan away, because they would not play nice and take the party line. I will grant you that French was under house arrest for drunkenness. But, nobody has been kept from testifying because they were under arrest. They stuck with 7th officers who would uphold the reputation of the regiment. They closed ranks. If you read Brisbin's letter you are among the few, that 1957 book may have been the 2nd time it was published.

The folks who generally who cling to GAC as a hero rarely have a military background. Teachers, artists, and such, who understand little of the real world. That is not to say all educators and artists feel that way.

Regards,
Tom

[dave]

Deadwood
As small as the peace time army was, would not the 7th officers realize they would be under suspecsion for their ability to survive? GAC was a lighting rod where ever he went was he not?

Military men such as yourself, Colt, AZ and QC certainly understand the aftermath situation far better than me but I am certain that all the officers were under scrutiny especially Reno and Benteen. The whispering campaign must have been in full flow so how difficult was it fit the survivors?

How can one respond and defend yourself against rumors and innuendos not only on your station but the whole army? Was this not the behavior that drove Reno to request the hearing?

What would You vets have experienced after the battle?
Regards
David

[deadwoodgultch]

Well for one, since we did not have USAF back then I would have been part of the Army. With my time in at that time(I got in in 1969 so go with 1869) being an EM may have made SGT/CPL. I probably would be in 2nd enlistment and have continued on the campaign and maybe the Nez Perce campaign the next year. I would have been indebted to and respectful of Benteen for his actions on the hill. Had I been in the valley I think I would have been thankful to have just gotten out.

With my enlistment date I would have missed the Washita. Depending my company and deployments I may done the 1873 and 1874 expeditions. If I did do the 1873 I would have seen the way Custer got himself into and out of tough spots, but I would have been concerned that he got us into those in the first place. I would have probably thought that maybe, just maybe, we bad been lucky in those first two fights. While it may be better than lucky than good, sometimes that luck runs out. I would be damn glad mine didn't. I would have been angry about the friends I had lost and probably questioned the battle plan. I would, however, probably have kept those concerns in my close circle and not rocked the boat. If I was asked I would have put forth an opinion. I, as an NCO always had a good relationship with my officers, I did my best to make them look good, and was able to discuss much with them. We must remember that this was a different time. Would I have testified, yes, but you can only answer what you are asked. Unsolicited testimony is stricken from the record, then as now. Ryan and French would have brought some to the RCOI, but were not called.

If all held true to form I would have retired in 1894 with a nice pension for the day, young enough to double dip.

Chuck would have fought through the ACW, been breveted for some action or another, been posted to some plush functionary job in DC married twice moved to the retired list in 1889. May have lost part of his retirement to his first wife. Joined the volunteers who went up San Juan Hill with Teddy. Voted for Teddy twice and then Wilson. He would spend the rest of his life hating Custer for what he felt was un deserved fame.

Steve would have left the military after his first hitch kept his opinions to himself and become a lawman. He probably would spent some time as a bounty hunter, and maybe chased Butch Cassidy.

I don't know as much about Colt, you may want to pick up Hugh Lennox Scott's book "My Service in "Custer's 7th Cavalry" it may give you some idea. He was not at the battle but was involved in the Nez Perce actions under Sturgis, learned sign language, later became commandant at West Point, he also returned to train troops for WWI. Or alternative maybe be was at the battle in the form of Lt. Luther Hare. You can choose,

Have not finished the book yet " The Past Lives of LBH Board Members", Beth would be Calhoun's wife, Sturgis mother, or Calamity Jane, with only a passing interest in the battle. If we could change sexes of our heroes she would be Benteen. Again you can choose.

Board member Benteen actually would have been Weir, French, Ryan, Martini, or Windolph can't get a full read. Benteen would choose Windolph for longevity and as a MOH recipient he could send his son to WP.

Ok, ok you asked and I had particularly strong coffee.

Regards,
Tom

[deadwoodgultch]

Just a thought on that last blast, Windolph was old enough to remember the ACW and lived through WWII and may have been aware of the build up to Korea. His last interview was after I was born, 69 years ago, I think Chuck was already reading Naval History.

Regards,

[deadwoodgultch]

Steve, when you get back and if you are bored enough to read my above long post, see if Will wants to collaborate with me on the book!

Regards,
Tom

[quincannon]

Colt:

The headline in every paper in the country, in the early days of July 1876, if they had known the whole truth would be:

GRANT RELENTS AND RESTORES CUSTER TO COMMAND, 7TH CAVALRY DESTROYED ON THE LITTLE BIG HORN

Now those are the facts and, the headlines would be accurate. The press would be doing its job. A already scandal wracked Grant Administration would be in a shambles of public distrust. The Army would be forced to look inwardly, and possibly discover, although I doubt it, just how bad they were, in training, equipment, and most importantly leadership. They would then go hat in hand to Congress saying give us more, and Congress would rightly say, we are not willing to pour good money in after bad, be quiet, don't you (the Army) know we are in a period of economic crisis. By the fall things were looking up on the frontier, and at that point no one, Administration, Congress, or Army feel like rocking the boat.

Brisbin, and a few others having direct knowledge of what transpired on the 76 Campaign were not called, because Custer's conduct was not investigated, only Reno's. An investigation of Custer's conduct was near impossible, and certainly not anything the Army wanted to be involved in.

[colt45]

QC,
That's the shame of it all. Reno was essentially sacrificed in order for the Army to stay as far away from the disaster as possible. Leaving Reno to be the goat of LBH, and as we now know, being the goat had a lot to do with his problems in later life. In my day in the Army, if I had let my command get torn to shreds ala LBH, none of my subordinates would have been to blame, only me as the commander, and rightly so.

[quincannon]

He would not be the first person that the Army has destroyed, when it has been the fault of another, and sometimes many anothers. and he won't be the last.

If you or I had participated in LBH, and we were in command, the responsibility would have fallen on us. That is the way it is, and must be.

Reno was not well liked inside or outside of the 7th Cavalry. He was an available donkey to pin the tail on, because had it been otherwise, there would have been many a star that would be tarnished. Getting your ass whipped on the battlefield, does not start and end on the battlefield. It always goes deep into the bowels of any army, and usually the outcome is summed up in three words, Leadership, Leadership, and Leadership. What should have been done but wasn't, left to fester, becomes a cancer. The post ACW Army had allowed the eleven years that passed for the cancer to spread, and attack the vital organs.

[benteen]

Sept 2, 2018 4:09:46 GMT quincannon said:

We have disagreed over many things over the years Dan, but when one speaks as much truth as you have above, I can only applaud you, and your service to that truth. Out of that truth must then come pity for those whose lives are so shallow, that they feel their only personal road to glory rests in the manufactured light of another.

Q/C

Thank you Chuck, I appreciate that.

Be Well
Dan