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Post by yanmacca on Feb 15, 2018 14:12:29 GMT
That's about as close as I can get it to Steve, the rotation system on Microsoft is pretty limiting;
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Post by yanmacca on Feb 15, 2018 14:37:47 GMT
Chuck, if I knew that I had every gun and howitzers at Bastogne my disposal, I would have used them. Yesterday was a roller coaster with work and booking a table for Valentines. The only artillery battalions I can think of are these; 377th & 463rd Parachute Field Artillery Battalion 321st & 907th Glider Field Artillery Battalion 81st Airborne Anti-Aircraft Battalion Some sources say twelve artillery battalions?
That battle scenario does seem familiar to me, as I have a DVD game called Combat Mission and there is a scenario named "the road to Witz, it is virtually as you describe and the US Artillery rained down as soon as I was spotted, four tank destroyers appeared on the left flank, but luckily I had split my armour into two groups and my left hand group caught the TDs from behind as they tried to hit my main group.
You know about Guy Fawkes?
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Post by quincannon on Feb 15, 2018 16:46:38 GMT
Eight battalions. Four from the 101st DIVARTY. One from Combat Command B, and a total of three from two artillery groups the 333, 969 and 755.
Every time we occupy a defensive position we plot the final protective fires for each assigned and supporting weapon. Once called for everyone from rifleman on up to the highest level of supporting weapon lay that weapons on their final protective assignment and fire until the barrels burn up, you run out of ammo, or the enemy is all dead. Firepower with the U S Army is a religion.
All eight battalions did not support Company A. There were several other fights going on at the same time.
I didn't tell you that Company had salvaged five 50 Caliber machine guns from Crossroads X either.
I also purposely did not tell you about local reserves in the area either. There were three or four rifle companies in the general area along with an engineer company. None of them were directly behind Company A, but all were in a position that if called upon to do so they could have lent support. Of course you didn't ask either. The takeaway from that is that no battalion or regimental commander is going to commit a reserve unless he has to, and the has to is determined by the reaction and continued actions of the forward deployed force. In this instance the reserve just laid back and let the attack penetrate and develop, then they sealed it off.
Company A 1/401 GIR was on the seam line between the 502nd PIR and the 327th GIR (remember the 1/401 was the 327th's 3rd battalion). That complicates things a bit, because coordination across seam lines is always difficult. In this particular instance you had two Colonels deciding what was best for two different regiments. The lesson for the attacker is identify seam lines and aim your attack there. It drives the defender crazy. The Germans did not know they had done this, remember there was no previous reconnaissance by the main attack force.
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Post by quincannon on Feb 15, 2018 17:18:10 GMT
Steve: In order to tell a tactical story the location of all artifacts uncovered must be plotted exactly. If not the story they tell cannot be true.
I think the bottom line with regards to this map is that it is so bad, it should be ignored.
In telling a tactical story the difference of fifty meters makes such a difference with regards to conclusions being drawn.
It should be ignored just as that other trail map with unknown provenance should be ignored, until such a time when provenance can be established.
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Post by yanmacca on Feb 15, 2018 19:11:39 GMT
Basically then Chuck, I didn't have a leg to stand on. Surly if I was in command I would know these basic things as extra artillery support, local reserves and extra HMGs. You may have got a different reaction from me if you gave me the same low down as the A company commander received. Sounds like I really walked into one there.
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Post by quincannon on Feb 15, 2018 19:38:23 GMT
I gave you all the information the commander of the 1/401 GIR had at the time of the attack. Nothing else could be committed to the battle unless the commanders of the 327 GIR or 502 PIR said it could. The 401st GIR commander could not even commit his other two rifle companies B and C without permission.
Also keep in mind that attacks were happening concurrently all around the perimeter.
Information is imperfect. Had it not been for decisions made by higher headquarters, that the attack of the 115th Panzergrenadiers was the main attack. None of this extra stuff would have been available to the 1/401 commander. As far as he was concerned he was on his own fighting with only what he had, with knowledge that he was back stopped by four TD's and the 463 PFAB.
The only thing that helped Company A that was beyond the norm were the five 50 Cals, and that was pure happenstance. Those weapons were salvaged from the wreckage that occurred days earlier at Crossroads X where the 326th Medical Company was overrun and captured, the event that sealed Bastogne off and surrounded the town. A/1/401 was the unit that responded, and picked up those guns by pure chance
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Feb 16, 2018 6:26:03 GMT
Steve: In order to tell a tactical story the location of all artifacts uncovered must be plotted exactly. If not the story they tell cannot be true. I think the bottom line with regards to this map is that it is so bad, it should be ignoredwith regards to this map is that it is so bad, it should be ignored. In telling a tactical story the difference of fifty meters makes such a difference with regards to conclusions being drawn. It should be ignored just as that other trail map with unknown provenance should be ignored, until such a time when provenance can be established. So do you think there are better maps with locations than what is on the map? The location on BRE is not 50 meters off. What Donahue produced was the findings of different recoveries to make his presentation.
For other sites here is an example. Luce put a No. 2 on his map "it signifies about 150 cartridge cases found in small groups and in a linear pattern, suggesting to Luce that perhaps forty men had fought a dismounted action at that location.
If you hold to your standard which artifacts do you think survive? GPS recording of exact locations for the battlefield started when? We know that Bray made a map but Scott tells us the cumulative error makes it useless. They found some of the original wood states for the artifacts but could not get them to match the Bray map.
You really don't want to know what happened to some of the artifacts found and stored in the basement. They got mixed before cataloging.
So we are left with the works done by Scott and Fox for sure since they followed established field methods.
Regards
Steve
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Feb 16, 2018 6:49:49 GMT
In order to tell a tactical story the location of all artifacts uncovered must be plotted exactly. If not the story they tell cannot be true.
Chuck Not sure what you mean. What year do you think they started doing what you state? I think at best you could state there is introduced error. What assumption do you make for cases for example. A Colt SAA case would not indicate where it was fired only at best where it was ejected. Bullets are less likely to move after firing but not impossible. So to state that cases found for soldier weapons and cases found for Indians weapons is consistent with occupation by both sides is as close as we are going to get. Even with a GPS taking the exact location it does insure it is the same location as on the day the artifact was placed there. What we know at best by using the methods Scott states is what was found at an exact location over 100 years later.
So plus or minus a few feet would not change whether one could form an opinion that there was military presence or Indian presence.
I think a great source for the artifacts is Uncovering History by Douglas D. Scott.
Regards
Steve
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Feb 16, 2018 13:03:16 GMT
Steve you are so right about casings, lever action shells are generally ejected at the site of firing as are the carbine casings. The revolver shells are expelled once the weapon is emptied. Makes one wonder why anyone would use a semi in conducting a crime, that is much easier to solve with ejected casings.
Regards, Tom
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Post by quincannon on Feb 16, 2018 16:53:57 GMT
I don't care where the artifacts are Steve, as long as they are accurately plotted. The only one I know of that have done that type work is Scott
Fifty meters one way or the other makes, or could make a difference in the story the artifacts tell. Fifty meters down a hill or fifty meters up a hill, can be an aide in determining who was shooting at what, or the intention of the position itself.
No I do not think there is a better map available, that is why I suggested what I did about the 1/3600 scale map with all of the known artifact fields platted.
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Feb 16, 2018 17:39:09 GMT
I think that the Donahue article was to open eyes as to the possibility of soldiers north of LSH. It was not something he was publishing for a book. I am sure he knew that Scott was working at that. That map accomplished it objective.
As far as what Scott discovered it would support a direction of fire toward the east so your comment on which side of BRE that Donahue showed was accurate. Here are the soldier carbine bullets:
Regards Steve
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Feb 16, 2018 17:44:47 GMT
Before we draw to many conclusions from these accurate locations maybe we should look at the area of inventory. Here is Scott's map of the inventory area.
So we see that it is limited in scope of area. I think it is significant that there were Indians cases found on that little hill adjacent to the Admin area and near where the old entrance road ends.
So Scott is no help in those areas he did not inventory which as we can see leaves out a lot of the findings in and around Ford Ds
Regards
Steve
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Post by quincannon on Feb 16, 2018 18:10:09 GMT
No Steve, it was not accurate, IF you use the finds in that artifact field to support a theory that the artifact field was left there on the way to Ford D. Is that not what Donahue uses it for, two companies moving toward the ford? That is my understanding of what you said his theory was regarding that find.
Where I have no problem with the find as is and plotted, is that the artifact field was after returning from Ford D. That is exactly where I would expect to find it, addressing the flanking movements of the Indians coming around Custer's right flank. In fact I would be surprised to find it anywhere else.
My argument is not where the finds are located. My problem is using those artifacts to support an argument, a story, that I find so implausible, based on the artifact find.
The totality of that inventory area tell a perfectly clear, easily understandable, story to me, as they should to you and anyone with even a smidgen of knowledge or experience in tactics. It's shape in total is a triangle, and taking the shape of the inventory area alone, that Custer was being attacked on both flanks. and both of those flanks refused. Had they stayed there, they would have been surrounded in short order, thus the rearward movement to the Last Stand Hill and Deep Ravine area forced upon them.
What I find to be a real shame is we do not have a similar inventory area defined for the artifacts found over time within the park boundary to compliment that second map you posted. Had we, there would be a lot of unanswered questions put to rest.
It also tells a story in that two small companies could not have been all that were there. The battle space is just too large. The antithesis of that is were there only two companies present, only a mad man would decide to try and hold the area.
The triangular shape of the artifact inventory area in the south tells a story as well. It's the same story. being flanked on both sides, until the point where both gave way.
So then it's not the artifacts alone. It is the story the artifacts tell.
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Post by yanmacca on Feb 16, 2018 19:28:47 GMT
It does look like they thought that the main threat was coming around the eastern side, but they held the high ground and any move should have been spotted fairly early, but I am sure that Sharrow was killed around that area where the triangle sits, but could they have been expending all that ammo on say Wolftooth? To me it looks like the threat from the river was not so important at this point, unless we had just as many finds on cemetery ridge which were either lost to building work or souvenir hunters. Plus we also have a new park road which would have changed the area quite a lot.
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Post by quincannon on Feb 16, 2018 21:36:41 GMT
Not only the "new" park road, which isn't all that new, but the old road as well, cemetery construction, the gravel pit, highway (both old and new) and railroad construction in the valley have all taken their toll.
The area you have in the blue triangle Ian is probably the most pristine in the area, and gives us a decent idea of the reaction to the markings on the Park Brochure, showing a wide sweeping flank attack. coming around that way heading toward LSH and into what became the Company I area.
Sharrow, if I remember correct;y was killed about half way between the base of your triangle and the 7th Cavalry Memorial, just north of the road that leads from the museum up to LSH.
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