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Post by yanmacca on Feb 16, 2018 21:59:08 GMT
Here is a little info on Indian firing positions;
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Feb 16, 2018 22:49:22 GMT
No Steve, it was not accurate, IF you use the finds in that artifact field to support a theory that the artifact field was left there on the way to Ford D. Is that not what Donahue uses it for, two companies moving toward the ford? That is my understanding of what you said his theory was regarding that find. I think you need to read the paper and see what Donahue used for sources. Fox, Scott and Bleed, the original map by John Stands in Timber from Margot Liberty which has more information than the published map in Cheyenne Memories, Standing Bear map, Two Moon's map, Copy of map 1008, Hank Weibert map, Darrell Linthicum map, William Boyes, Jerome Green, and maps by John Doerner map. This is one of seven papers presented in 2003. The total pages number of pages are only 90 pages. If you want all the maps they are not going to be found in a symposium paper. Of all the persons to challenge on maps and access to maps I think it would hard to have more sources than Donahue. Do you have his map book?Where I have no problem with the find as is and plotted, is that the artifact field was after returning from Ford D. That is exactly where I would expect to find it, addressing the flanking movements of the Indians coming around Custer's right flank. In fact I would be surprised to find it anywhere else. I think you would need to use the source maps not an illustration map I would think. My argument is not where the finds are located. My problem is using those artifacts to support an argument, a story, that I find so implausible, based on the artifact find. That is because in my opinion that you have not read the paper which identifies the sources. The illustration was not used to form his opinion. It is used to illustrate what his opinion would look like.The totality of that inventory area tell a perfectly clear, easily understandable, story to me, as they should to you and anyone with even a smidgen of knowledge or experience in tactics. It's shape in total is a triangle, and taking the shape of the inventory area alone, that Custer was being attacked on both flanks. and both of those flanks refused. Had they stayed there, they would have been surrounded in short order, thus the rearward movement to the Last Stand Hill and Deep Ravine area forced upon them. The triangle is Scott's inventory area. Scott in his book also has the artifacts found while the old entrance road was constructed. I don't see how we can throw away a Colt SAA revolver just because the construction guys didn't have GPS nor were there any clearances before begining construction.What I find to be a real shame is we do not have a similar inventory area defined for the artifacts found over time within the park boundary to compliment that second map you posted. Had we, there would be a lot of unanswered questions put to rest. I think Douglas Scott has exactly that in that he has stored in GIS all found artifacts between 1984 and 2004. Its a mass of white dots when on a map that fits within Uncovering History. It also tells a story in that two small companies could not have been all that were there. The battle space is just too large. The antithesis of that is were there only two companies present, only a mad man would decide to try and hold the area. Only 14 distinct Springfield Carbines were identified on BRE. Of those 4 had matches in the Calhoun area. The triangular shape of the artifact inventory area in the south tells a story as well. It's the same story. being flanked on both sides, until the point where both gave way. The story they tell is how the inventory area was designed for property outside the park boundaries but with permission to inventort. The rectangle in the middle is park boundaries and that area if full of artifacts also. The book is called A Good Walk Around the Boundary by Douglas D. Scott and Peter Bleed.So then it's not the artifacts alone. It is the story the artifacts tell. Agreed
Regards
Steve
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Feb 16, 2018 23:07:51 GMT
Here is a little info on Indian firing positions; Ian
Is that from the magazine Historical Archeology?
Regards
Steve
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Feb 16, 2018 23:33:55 GMT
All of the above is interesting, I think that if you look at both maps, use your gut, you can see the arc in which the lead was thrown. Steve, east or semicircle?
Regards, Tom
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Post by quincannon on Feb 17, 2018 1:56:11 GMT
Exactly Tom. Both of those two artifact inventories, tell the same story. That is what it looks like when you are being enveloped.
Steve is concentrating on what was found, a bullet here a revolver's remains there. What I am trying to do is make these things mean something in a tactical perspective. As an example I am not at all surprised by firing eastward as Indians were trying to work that flank.
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Post by quincannon on Feb 17, 2018 7:26:14 GMT
Ian: Please take that photo map you posted the blue triangle on and do the following:
Draw in yellow starting at the L in Little Big Horn a line that goes up towards the trading post, then bend it around and go south again to the marker for Highway 212, the second one from the top of the picture, where it nearly touches the base of that blue triangle. The line you draw should look something like a horseshoe.
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Post by yanmacca on Feb 17, 2018 13:21:53 GMT
Like this?
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Feb 17, 2018 13:22:50 GMT
Exactly Tom. Both of those two artifact inventories, tell the same story. That is what it looks like when you are being enveloped. Steve is concentrating on what was found, a bullet here a revolver's remains there. What I am trying to do is make these things mean something in a tactical perspective. As an example I am not at all surprised by firing eastward as Indians were trying to work that flank. Chuck
Let's get the facts straight. Mac ask for me to post the Donahue map again. You insinuated that Donahue used that map to form his opinion and you stated that it is your opinion to disregard the map. I merely pointed out the sources used for Donahue (the map book guy) in order to form his opinion. I suggest that Donahue merely had an illustration to use to make his point of his paper presentation that Custer moved north of Last Stand Hill.
I then posted one of the maps of Scotts work along with the inventory area. That is evidence of only what was found regarding .45 Springfield bullets. Scott's book is full of those maps. What is not in that picture of the triangle are the .45 Springfield bullets within the park boundary (since the book as walk around the boundary) and .45 Springfield bullets found out side the park but from pervious sources. That is what Donahue was discussing in the paper.
So here is Scott's total artifacts found map. IT excludes some of the artifacts found on CR, old entrance road, and BRE outside the study area and the private property without permission. My point is that if we want to form opinions we should all artifacts found. Scott does not have any artifacts at Ford D because someone else found them before 1983 most likely.
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Feb 17, 2018 13:57:58 GMT
Ian: Please take that photo map you posted the blue triangle on and do the following: Draw in yellow starting at the L in Little Big Horn a line that goes up towards the trading post, then bend it around and go south again to the marker for Highway 212, the second one from the top of the picture, where it nearly touches the base of that blue triangle. The line you draw should look something like a horseshoe. From CR an Indian participant stated that soldiers fired toward BRE and the Indians were at the same location the .45.70 cases were found. So what I see as options is that fire could come from BRE, CR, or even LSH in that field of .45 Springfield bullets. We have potentially is overlapping fields of fire both in time and location.
Ian if you look at the Bonafede map with a magnifying glass (at least for me) you can see the light blue marks indicating soldier bullets to the west of the new entrance road and BRE that do not appear on Scott's map. That map was done in 1999. Now look at 2003 Donahue's map which shows those same bullets but for me they are a lot easier to see.
In either case I would not use Donahue's map nor Bonafede's since there has to be original sources that Bonafede and Donahue used.
Regards
Steve
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Feb 17, 2018 14:44:42 GMT
The distance from LSH to that area out the Battle Ridge Extension is 400 to less than 600 yards. Well within the range of a Springfield Carbine. I think tracking the cases with the knowledge that ejection could occur at other than the fired location is a better way to track movement.
Only 10 carbines were identified by cases found on BRE. Of the 10 carbines 4 had cases identified else where. 4 carbines were matched to cases found in the Calhoun area. One carbine was matched to the Keogh Area. I am not sure if that is 5 matches or one carbine in Keogh and also Calhoun area.
Here is a note in Scott's work that I missed. I could have saved myself and us a lot time if I read this. At least my instinct was to include all available shooting locations.
"The orientation of the bullets, as recorded at the time of discovery, gives the impression that most were fired from the Last Stand Hill vicinity."
The good thing is that these discussion cause us to revisit material we can use form opinions.
Regards
Steve
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Post by quincannon on Feb 17, 2018 16:44:34 GMT
Yes Ian, exactly. I believe that yellow line confines the battle space for the sencod phase of Custer's fight.
a) The first phase is in the western flats to the base of CR and BRE.
b) The second phase represents the Indian efforts to flank Custer, on both his right and left.
c) The third phase has Custer pulling out of that horse shoe, and trying to form a line from LSH down to Deep Ravine.
d) Phase four would be the break up of the battalion followed by attempts to escape.
Steve I am going on only what you posted about Donahue's theory. I am quite sure you said that Donahue theorizes that two companies went to Ford D and the artifact field on and near BRE represents an action on the way to Ford D, and the artifact field on CR represents action by those same two companies on the way back from Ford D. Now if that is not a correct representation of the Donahue theory tell me now so we can both stop wasting our time. My counterargument to Donahue's theory is both of these artifact fields came to be after Custer returned.
What Mac is trying to determine by this thread is the tactical approach to Ford D, meaning both probable routes and events along the way. That Donahue map gives us an artifact field along the most probable route, but as plotted on that same map. the reverse slope or back (east) side of Battle Ridge extension it would be counter to Mac'a purpose to just leave it there, thinking that it is a result of an event going to Ford D. It is in the wrong place for such an event taking place at that time. Therefore, if Donahue is telling that tale, that I am quite sure you related accurately, that tale must be fully discussed and either accepted or rejected before there can be any forward movement from that point on.
Rarely do I insinuate anything. I usually come right out and say what I have on my mind. What is on my mind this morning is that Donahue took that map, which is perfectly OK with me, as it shows exactly what I want, and tried to wedge a two company north past LSH scenario into something, the map, that disputes that scenario. My argument goes further in that the map fully supports more than two companies up there, on the order of at least four and probably five. It is the same basic argument I made against the Wagner scenario, where he had Company F down in the flat basin area near Deep Ravine, and Company E on Cemetery Ridge. I think that by using Ian's maps that the geometry was all wrong. Here again we are using a map, but this time the artifact field on the back side of BRE is all right but using it to support the Donahue proposal is all wrong.
Sidebar: I am always suspicious of maps and documents, especially those said to be hidden for years, newly discovered, torn from grandma's attic, and so on. Anytime someone's work is advertised with "Now the true story can be told" sends messages of poop peddling to what passes for my brain.
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Post by yanmacca on Feb 17, 2018 19:48:30 GMT
Looking at the map what Steve posted, the one with the cartridge finds, you cannot really place these cartridges in any line, but what it looks like to me is that a company or companies, arrived in that triangle I posted in irregular order and resembled a group rather than a column and troopers fired from horse back before moving on.
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mac
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Post by mac on Feb 18, 2018 21:18:43 GMT
Thanks for that AZ. I will need some think time. re the artefacts map, can I point out the absence of them at Ford B....hardly the sign of the traditional scenario.
Also Ian and QC’s yellow line. Traditional warrior tactics..confront then challenge the flanks to form a half moon formation...then perhaps if possible an envelopment. I propose that tactically the first warriors, in smaller numbers, crossed the river and concealed to confront Custer, later arrivals quickly reinforced. Still later arrivals moved along the west of the river close past his right flank with numbers continuing to grow they continued along the tributary to the north (Custer Creek) and that leads to markers in the trading post area.
Ugly situation very quickly for Custer. His time in the valley on the Ford D attack was short. Cheers
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Feb 19, 2018 4:38:50 GMT
Yes Ian, exactly. I believe that yellow line confines the battle space for the sencod phase of Custer's fight. a) The first phase is in the western flats to the base of CR and BRE. b) The second phase represents the Indian efforts to flank Custer, on both his right and left. c) The third phase has Custer pulling out of that horse shoe, and trying to form a line from LSH down to Deep Ravine. d) Phase four would be the break up of the battalion followed by attempts to escape. Steve I am going on only what you posted about Donahue's theory. I am quite sure you said that Donahue theorizes that two companies went to Ford D and the artifact field on and near BRE represents an action on the way to Ford D, and the artifact field on CR represents action by those same two companies on the way back from Ford D. Now if that is not a correct representation of the Donahue theory tell me now so we can both stop wasting our time. My counterargument to Donahue's theory is both of these artifact fields came to be after Custer returned. Donahue's theory in his paper titled "Beyond Custer Hill" 2003 has E,F and HQ moving north of Custer Hill and as the moved toward the river they split in two groups. Custer and Yates went to the river and Smith went even further to Willy's Bend. Some of Custer's men lost horses and move to the ridge on CR in front of the stone house. E had gone to Willy's Bend and also me resistance. E comes back and they cover for the retreating soldiers on foot. That is what the paper states. But we know that part of what that was based upon was the hundreds of cases that we now know weren't there. The big thing about this paper is that it movement "Beyond Custer Hill".I think the new book will be out soon and I suspect the book will have a more detail than a paper for CBHMA in 2003. I have heard rumors of the finding of a notebook but we will have to wait and see. I am not sure what you mean they occurred after Custer returned. The case at Willy's Bend would have occurred while E was there in Donahue's theory. The Kellogg marker area would have occurred while the soldiers were close to the river and at the end of BRE. I think that 15 years later with Donahue living there from May to September that his opinion could have changed so we could wait till this summer to know his current opinion.What Mac is trying to determine by this thread is the tactical approach to Ford D, meaning both probable routes and events along the way. That Donahue map gives us an artifact field along the most probable route, but as plotted on that same map. the reverse slope or back (east) side of Battle Ridge extension it would be counter to Mac'a purpose to just leave it there, thinking that it is a result of an event going to Ford D. It is in the wrong place for such an event taking place at that time. Therefore, if Donahue is telling that tale, that I am quite sure you related accurately, that tale must be fully discussed and either accepted or rejected before there can be any forward movement from that point on. I think we all know what could be the 5 company movement to the north. I also think it should have worked but something went wrong. I have no reason to throw out anything other than those opinions that have Custer stopped at LSH and no soldiers went north. Rarely do I insinuate anything. I usually come right out and say what I have on my mind. TRUE What is on my mind this morning is that Donahue took that map, which is perfectly OK with me, as it shows exactly what I want, and tried to wedge a two company north past LSH scenario into something, the map, that disputes that scenario. My argument goes further in that the map fully supports more than two companies up there, on the order of at least four and probably five. It is the same basic argument I made against the Wagner scenario, where he had Company F down in the flat basin area near Deep Ravine, and Company E on Cemetery Ridge. I think that by using Ian's maps that the geometry was all wrong. Here again we are using a map, but this time the artifact field on the back side of BRE is all right but using it to support the Donahue proposal is all wrong. All of the Springfield cases are found on top of BRE not the backside. The bullets in the area came primarily from the LSH direction. That would match the Indian occupation of BRE after the troopers left. We have fire at that location from CR and from LSH direction. I am not sure how this eliminates either theory. 10 carbines firing doesn't suggest even a company firing. Sidebar: I am always suspicious of maps and documents, especially those said to be hidden for years, newly discovered, torn from grandma's attic, and so on. Anytime someone's work is advertised with "Now the true story can be told" sends messages of poop peddling to what passes for my brain. Donahue's map sole purpose was to point out that there is indication of solder movement beyond LSH.In the paper he presents information from the other maps that are in his book. Norris from 1877 for instance has as a dotted line going out BRE. This paper at the time was a bold step forward past LSH. The BRE discoveries were 1994.
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Feb 19, 2018 4:50:15 GMT
Thanks for that AZ. I will need some think time. re the artefacts map, can I point out the absence of them at Ford B....hardly the sign of the traditional scenario. Also Ian and QC’s yellow line. Traditional warrior tactics..confront then challenge the flanks to form a half moon formation...then perhaps if possible an envelopment. I propose that tactically the first warriors, in smaller numbers, crossed the river and concealed to confront Custer, later arrivals quickly reinforced. Still later arrivals moved along the west of the river close past his right flank with numbers continuing to grow they continued along the tributary to the north (Custer Creek) and that leads to markers in the trading post area. Ugly situation very quickly for Custer. His time in the valley on the Ford D attack was short. Cheers Mac
I think they never went to Ford B to cross. I think it is possible a company moved that direction and rejoined on LSH before they moved north. Some accounts have the gray horses there. I think the movement is in the flat and there was movement following BRE around and over parts of it. We know that .45 Springfield bullets were found on BRE in the stretch where the Kellogg marker was along side the old entrance road.
The heaviest part of the artifacts are between CR and BRE and as you get closer to the river they drop off. So first Scott addresses it by stating materials were moved from the ford D area to build the road bed and secondly it could just be that the Cheyennes were their to protect there families and they could not find an unopposed crossing.
So more for Colt and Chuck. If Custer has all 5 companies at Willy's Bend how many Indians would it take to prevent them from crossing.
For Mac is there anything in the timing that keep CIL from moving north?
Regards
Steve
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