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Post by yanmacca on Feb 10, 2018 19:28:53 GMT
Steve, it looks like if Benteen carried on his initial course, he would be taking himself well out of the fight.
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Post by yanmacca on Feb 10, 2018 20:35:07 GMT
Mac, as you know, Benteen claimed at the RCOI, that 900 Indians where in the valley and these remained there for around 30 minutes after his arrival on Reno hill.
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Post by quincannon on Feb 11, 2018 5:15:14 GMT
I am almost sure that this is nothing, but I was struck by Benteen's remark of there being 900. It just seems like a strange thing to say. Maybe not strange, more out of the ordinary.
Why would he try to be so precise with 900. He obviously didn't count them, and most people seeing that large a number might say - about a thousand. I would not think they would use figures like 700, 800, or 900. I would suspect that were it a lesser number, but still a lot, the remark would be - There were four of five hundred.
I think most of us under those circumstances would do something similar.
I don't believe the questioner at the RCOI was looking for a precise answer, just a figure that would convey to the court, an approximate amount as a way to convey the seriousness of the situation.
I tend to have strange thoughts during snow storms.
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Post by yanmacca on Feb 11, 2018 12:21:44 GMT
I would guess that Benteen just threw a rough estimate out there at the RCOI, you could easily say that Benteen saw between 500 and 1200 Indians and they stayed in the valley for between 15 and 30 minutes.
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Feb 11, 2018 14:54:39 GMT
Steve, it looks like if Benteen carried on his initial course, he would be taking himself well out of the fight. Ian
That is the same conclusion that I draw from looking at the course of direction that Benteen took continuing the line to the LBH. I seem to recall that there was also some observation made at the Crow's Nest that there was activity observed near SFRC. It's hard for me to ignore what Herendeen knew from 1874 regarding contact with these same Indians. Next look at where the angle places Benteen in regards to SFRC. It's about 5 miles up SFRC. Also when they observe nothing they return to Reno Creek. Benteen had 3 companies and he could have blocked movement up SFRC. If Benteen continues the line to the river he is out of the fight until much later.
So regardless of the exact route we have the divide as starting place and the location that Gibson marked on map on the ridge above SFRC and what observations you can see from that point. Anyone there can see that Gibson might think he could see all the way to the LBH.
Regards
Steve
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mac
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Post by mac on Feb 13, 2018 8:17:33 GMT
Ford D Part 1 AZ it would be useful if you could re post the Donahue artifacts map here with the information that the checked part on CR is dubious.
In Donahue's book Drawing Battle Lines he reproduces the John Stands in Timber (JSIT) map of Wolftooth's account of the battle. He also says that Don Rickey a National Parks historian, after discussions with JSIT, did a survey west of the railway bridge at Ford D and found battles artifacts. If anyone knows more about Rickey's finds please tell us.
Wolftooth says that the Grey Horse company (Company E) were the rear guard for the Custer battalion all the way to Battle Ridge. When Custer deploys at BRE and CR this would probably place them on the left flank nearest CR. The account says that Wolftooth saw Custer going down off the ridge and his band then occupied the ridge top and fired down on them. I picture this movement having Company E moving to opposite the railway bridge area and dismounting to form a skirmish line just as the warrior accounts record.
Ian It would be helpful if you could post a google image showing the course of the river and the railway bridge and highway crossing.
We can then consider each of these graphics and look at what might have unfolded. Cheers
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Post by yanmacca on Feb 13, 2018 14:54:13 GMT
Mac, I have tried to re-produce what the river course would have been like in 1876 by following the dry river course, its a crude but at least you get the general idea. Look the way the old course has changed. especially around Willys Bend and more importantly near Gibbons Ford.
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Feb 13, 2018 15:24:16 GMT
Ford D Part 1 AZ it would be useful if you could re post the Donahue artifacts map here with the information that the checked part on CR is dubious. In Donahue's book Drawing Battle Lines he reproduces the John Stands in Timber (JSIT) map of Wolftooth's account of the battle. He also says that Don Rickey a National Parks historian, after discussions with JSIT, did a survey west of the railway bridge at Ford D and found battles artifacts. If anyone knows more about Rickey's finds please tell us. Wolftooth says that the Grey Horse company (Company E) were the rear guard for the Custer battalion all the way to Battle Ridge. When Custer deploys at BRE and CR this would probably place them on the left flank nearest CR. The account says that Wolftooth saw Custer going down off the ridge and his band then occupied the ridge top and fired down on them. I picture this movement having Company E moving to opposite the railway bridge area and dismounting to form a skirmish line just as the warrior accounts record. Ian It would be helpful if you could post a google image showing the course of the river and the railway bridge and highway crossing. We can then consider each of these graphics and look at what might have unfolded. CheersSo the area of 800-1000 cartridges needs to be removed
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Post by yanmacca on Feb 13, 2018 16:25:12 GMT
Steve, that reflects somewhat to my interpretation of the old river course, I have enlarged you photo slightly, hope you don't mind;
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Post by quincannon on Feb 13, 2018 18:17:53 GMT
The Donahue map does not match the terrain at all. Very Poor work and should be looked at as highly conjectural
Look on the Bonafides and notice where the curve starts as the road goes past the park headquarters and Cemetery and starts up LSH. Then compare it with the Bonafides.
Then look at how the top most contour line of Cemetery Ridge compares to the Bonafides. They too are way off.
Look at the location of the gravel pit on the drawn map
Now maybe Donahue did not draw the map. Don't know, but he published it, and if I can see the differences by a quick glance, you would think he could as well.
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Post by yanmacca on Feb 13, 2018 19:54:23 GMT
I have changed my map for Mac as the river was slightly wrong. Here is a cutting from the Bonafides, showing the area in question;
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Post by quincannon on Feb 13, 2018 20:20:14 GMT
Yes Ian, the second map depicts the entire area covered by the Donahue map.
What strikes me then with the Donahue map is that the artifact field on that map is probably in the correct location, north of the cemetery, and north of the maintenance road. Now thanks to Steve passing on the fact that Donahue now says the some of the artifacts on Cemetery Ridge should not be there or be so numerous. We are left with the notion that only half of that ridge was occupied, and I think we may conclude from that, is that the present cemetery construction may have unearthed or perhaps ignored the unearthing of any artifacts that would be found on the left flank of that ridge. That left flank would be immediately adjacent to Cemetery Ravine.
If you note those squiggly turns in the top most Cemetery Ridge contour line, you will notice it being a direct match for the Bonafides that has that has the words 2LT James Stugis written next to it. That contour, and those words are in the middle of Cemetery Ravine, not on Cemetery Ridge, and are in fact next to the foot path that leads off LSH and allows the visitor the ability to go all the way down to the Deep Ravine cut near the river
The Donahue map appears in some places to be a couple of hundred meters either off or missing, and that is particularly apparent in the location of the gravel pit, and the location of the cemetery and park headquarters as they relate to the curve in the road where it goes up to LSH.
So I think we must ask the question, if the location of the artifacts on Cemetery Ridge (taking into consideration that they may not be as extensive as the map shows) are correct, why was the left flank on that ridge nearest Cemetery Ravine, not occupied (the tactically sound thing to do), and if it was where are the artifacts associated with that occupation? The most simple answer is that the cemetery construction moved them, in an era where the artifacts were not deemed important.
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Post by yanmacca on Feb 13, 2018 20:35:17 GMT
I must admit to being skeptical of the amount of army cartridges found so near Highway 2, they appear to be way out from any known position held by the cavalry.
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mac
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Post by mac on Feb 13, 2018 21:27:42 GMT
Thanks AZ and Ian that is great. I will post in some detail later but note the geometry of the river around the railway bridge that JSIT says is the point that Custer moved towards. Obviously there are gaps created in the artefact field by human activities however on the Donahue map note the few finds along the edge of the river and the gravel pit to the south. There clearly was action there. For example the two army cartridges with a close spatial association with two arrowheads down near the river. Cheers
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Post by quincannon on Feb 13, 2018 21:49:32 GMT
I am as well Ian. Using both the Donahue map and the Bonafides, those artifacts are on the reverse(eastern) slope of battle ridge extension and drift down into what Bonafides labels as Crazy Horse Ravine.
Why would they be there is a damned good question, and one not solved by that place either being a location of a firefight going to Ford D. or coming back from it.
It a large elongated oval. probably more than 200 meters wide, indicating a skirmish line, which would mean dismounted action.
What we really need is a large scale map say 1/3600 where one inch on the map would equal 100 yards. Then have the contour lines, roads, pathways, and buildings added, along with the cemetery perimeter, for reference, and nothing else. The map would be huge and probably be six to nine map sheets. That done, plot to scale all known artifact finds, even the suspicious ones. From that I think you could readily identify the artifact find locations that are outliers that seem to make no sense.
That would be a great tool and something I think we can get no further definitive answers without.
We know the markers don't tell us all that much, but I think in most cases the artifact finds themselves don't lie.
The best artifact field for our purposes are the locations where Army cartridge cases and Indian bullets are intermingled. That would indicate the location of a battle line.
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