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Post by quincannon on Dec 2, 2017 23:20:51 GMT
The Second "O" in KOCOA - Observation and Fields of Fire
What is the purpose of a reverse slope defense, and what compromises have to be made in observation and fields of fire when a reverse slope defense is adopted as a preferred course of action?
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dave
Brigadier General
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Post by dave on Dec 3, 2017 1:10:18 GMT
Would Meade's position on day 3 of Gettysburg with his headquarters in widow Leister's house on the backside of Cemetery Ridge be considered a reverse slope position? Hunt attempted to keep his reserve batteries in this area and there were infantry units there as well. Regards Dave PS The 11th Mississippi made the deepest penetration of the Union lines during Longstreet's (Pickett's Charge) Assault past Bryan's barn. Company A, the University Grays, suffered 100% casualties during the assault* * hottytoddy.com/2013/04/30/the-university-greys/
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Post by quincannon on Dec 3, 2017 3:46:03 GMT
No, it would not be considered a reverse slope defense Dave. There was really not enough depth in that position to permit such a defense considering that confederates were also behind them on the other side of that fish hook. Very true that there was artillery and Infantry kept back there though on the reverse slope, but they were there as a reserve for their forward deployed deployed lines on the military crest (or near it) facing the confederate attack.
The classic reverse slope defense is Wellington's at Waterloo.
To partially answer your question you posted by PM. Reno's position stunk. That said, it stunk less that everything else.
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dave
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Post by dave on Dec 3, 2017 4:03:23 GMT
I thought that Meade's position was not very deep and that suitable. As to the Reno Last Line position you are right it stunk but was there a better place nearby? Regards Dave
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Post by quincannon on Dec 3, 2017 15:54:01 GMT
Dave if there was a better place for Reno to defend I have not seen it in all these years. Keep in mind now in saying this I mean defend with what he had available to him.
There are places better for defense in the LBH battle space, but just not with the 400 or so available. You pointed to the Weir Point area a few days ago as a possible, which I rejected, as did Reno and Benteen. Had they had twice their number that place could have been successfully held I believe.
A place alone is no good to you unless you have sufficient means. Same thing when you go out to eat. You may want a steak, and steak is on the menu, but if you only have the where with all to get a burger, you buy a burger.
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mac
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Post by mac on Dec 4, 2017 23:12:28 GMT
The Second "O" in KOCOA - Observation and Fields of Fire What is the purpose of a reverse slope defense, and what compromises have to be made in observation and fields of fire when a reverse slope defense is adopted as a preferred course of action? I have seen this referenced with respect to Pickett's Charge; so it must apply to the placement of US forces on Cemetery Ridge. Was this arrangement a factor in the decision to send in Pickett? Cheers
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dave
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Post by dave on Dec 5, 2017 2:02:28 GMT
Mac I will attempt to answer your question with the proviso that QC knows more about this arena of actions, the East, than I do. Why Lee ordered Pickett's Charge or Longstreet's Assault? I do not think Lee gave much if any consideration about the defensive position of the Union army on Cemetery Ridge and I have listed my thoughts below. 1) He had supreme confidence in his men after they had defeated Unions forces at Fredericksburg and Chancellorsville 2) He apparently believed that if he could defeat the Army of the Potomac in the North that perhaps Great Britain and/or France would side with the Confederacy 3) Lincoln was facing an election on the fall and a Union loss perhaps might the cause US to seek a peace settlement 4) He had attacked both flanks of Meade's army on the first two days ans believed the center of the army had been weakened and was poorly defended 5) Pickett' division was fresh and eager for action I am sure there were many other reasons but those are the ones I have encountered through my readings over the year. Deadwood lives in Northern Virginia and has a vast amount of knowledge about Lee's army and actions in that theater of war. I know that Jeb Stewart's actions during this campaign is a fertile topic that may haps be brought up as a question regarding the terrain at Brandy Station where Jeb got paddled pretty good by Pleasonton which may have lead to Stewart wanting to gain some lost glory by riding around Hooker's forces. Regards Dave The site below is chock full of information regarding Pickett's Charge www.gdg.org/Gettysburg%20Magazine/measure.htmlThis site provides alot of info regarding North Carolina soldiers and Virginia men in Pickett's Charge and is also very informative digital.lib.ecu.edu/text/12938#
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dave
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Post by dave on Dec 5, 2017 2:56:38 GMT
Mac As a follow up to the subject of Pickett's Charge, you should know there was a certain controversy after the event from other states that had units in the action. North Carolina, Mississippi, Alabama and Tennessee had regiments that participated under Pettigrew and Trimble which resented the biased coverage of the battle by the Virginia newspapers, especially those from Richmond.
In 1888, a North Carolinian who had been at Gettysburg in Ewell's Corps wrote a detailed defense of North Carolina's sons and in which he stated that Pickett's division was of little value during the assault. If you have the time it is a marvelous read I highly recommend it as a detailed view of the war between the states---the one among Confederate States---a little known story.* The title is Pickett Or Pettigrew?: North Carolina At Gettysburg. A Historical Monograph written by Captain William R. Bond. I ran across this gem years ago while studying the history of the 26th North Carolina at Gettysburg after reading High Tide at Gettysburg by Glenn Tucker. Another excellent book about the seminal battle of the War. Regards Dave *https://archive.org/details/cu31924030924561
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mac
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Post by mac on Dec 5, 2017 3:57:37 GMT
Thanks Dave! Only had time to skim through it but I love the essay. I also note in much of the material, and the essay, the partisan nature of the states. No great sense of unity there, but I guess early days for the idea of a federal unity of purpose. To go back to the QC question of reverse slope defense...eyes on the forward slope and an ability to fire across the forward slope, as we see here. Must go! Cheers
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Post by quincannon on Dec 5, 2017 4:00:14 GMT
Or you could say Dave that Lee was out of his goddamned mind thinking any fifteen thousand men ever birthed by woman could be expected to successfully attack over a mile of open ground against dug in, unbroken, seasoned veterans. I give homage to all of your five statements save one. The election was to be held in the Fall of 64 not 63. The rest are true but also purely Lost Cause excuse making bull shit. Pickett's Charge itself is Lost Cause bull shit in that Pickett's was only one of three divisions making that attack, and had the easiest of the three objectives. The guy from North Carolina was correct in assertions that the other two divisions making that attack are largely forgotten, which itself is more of the Lost Cause's against the odds bull shit. If you have to make stupid shit excuses as to why you lost the war, then goddamn it don't start or fight one. ?/ Lee ordered Stuart to make that ride, I have copies of the orders is you wish to see them. The responsibility for Stuart's failure rested completely with Lee, in that he both did not anticipate probable enemy movements, and did not provide Stuart with explicit instructions should that ride go side ways, which it did. Blaming Stuart was more Lost Cause bull shit, because Stuart was dead and could not defend himself, no one listened to what Longstreet said in the matter, and both of their testimonies would have stained the robes of the sainted one. ? Mac: Union forces were placed on Cemetery Ridge in the conventional manner with the majority placed defensively on the military crest, and a sufficient number of reserves maintained on the reverse slope. Lee was a complete simpleton for attacking there in the center. Had he looked at the Union order of battle he would have seen that one complete corps of the AOP had not been identified, and guess where those buzzards were sitting. It was almost like Meade was standing on that wall giving Lee the finger saying please attack me so I can kill your stupid ass so I do not have to cross that same field tomorrow in the other direction and that stupid bastard Lee took the bait. If was like being invited to a knife fight at Crocodile Dundee's house.
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Post by quincannon on Dec 5, 2017 4:24:26 GMT
A reverse slope defense to be successful must have an element of surprise, and your defensive area must have a good bit of depth behind your defensive line.
In the reverse slope defense you are giving up long range fields of fire, You are counting on the enemy to come up over the crest of the ridge or hill and then slam them with a high volume of fire, by surprise as the skyline themselves on the crest.
You do outpost the crest to keep yourself apprised of the direction and speed of the enemy advance and to direct artillery fire onto them, but you withdraw those outposts as the enemy comes closer
It can be a very effective form of defense, but brother if you do not know what you are doing, it can go sideways very fast.
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dave
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Post by dave on Dec 5, 2017 5:07:44 GMT
QC
I stand corrected regarding the election was in 1864 as you mentioned. As to the Stuart matter I will have to read up on it to respond sensibly as I had believed that he was to maintain contact with Ewell's Corps---Early's Division---and caused Lee's displeasure. Regards Dave
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Dec 5, 2017 12:03:34 GMT
The Fetterman fight was to some degree a reverse slope tactic. The NA's used it to great effect a number of times in other battles. They just did not know what to call it.
Regards, Tom
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Post by quincannon on Dec 5, 2017 16:30:41 GMT
When you read up on it Dave, have a good map available and realize the Salem is now Marshall, VA.
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mac
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Post by mac on Dec 5, 2017 20:52:53 GMT
Given the discussions above. Could Lee have won at Gettysburg? Cheers
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