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Post by yanmacca on Oct 19, 2017 14:33:19 GMT
Colt, that's exactly what I mean when I said 'put yourself in Reno's position' as he did what he was ordered to do, but was stopped by enemy Opposition. If he knew that he was on his own and given a choice of either being wiped out or turn back, then I know what choice he would have made, but of course he didn't because he was a decent officer and thought that he was a part of a regimental attack plan, so he had to carry out his orders.
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Oct 19, 2017 21:00:55 GMT
Reno stayed too long because he believed he was going to be supported by Custer, and his orders were to charge the village. I agree that he stayed on the skirmish line too long and allowed the Indians to flank him on the left. Again, this was probably due to his trying to obey Custer's order and his expectation of Custer coming up behind him to cover the left and develop the situation. Had he known Custer changed plans and left him dangling, I think he would have pulled off the line much sooner and would have withdrawn back to ford A using a covered withdrawal. He also could have expected Benteen to show up either behind him on the east side of the river, or from up the valley, if he had continued all the way to the LBH as ordered. Yes Ian, I imagine it just as Colt has said. Reno held too long because he thought Custer was coming. I have often pondered the account of Custer waving his hat on the bluffs. This is perhaps just a fantasy whiff on my part but: What if he was not just urging them on, what if he was trying to indicate that they should move back down the valley towards Ford A? He could not send a message any other way at that point. Cheers
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Oct 19, 2017 21:07:13 GMT
I think we can now see a flow to this part of the action. Custer first sends Benteen off to the left and starts to attack in the valley. He changes his mind after Reno is already committed and moves right himself. When he is able to see the disposition of the enemy he recalls Benteen to fill the gap between the valley and the pack train. Custer then continues his attack. A swift thrust along behind the ridges to the north end of the village at Ford D. That to me makes sense and has a flow to the action. Cheers
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Oct 19, 2017 21:51:55 GMT
Mac,
I obviously don't know if you are right, and it might be a bit of reach, but I like your thought process,
Regards, Tom
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Post by yanmacca on Oct 20, 2017 11:42:51 GMT
Mac, I have a feeling that the hat waving done by Custer, was mainly for the benefit of his own battalion, I suppose he may have turned to the cavalry in the valley and gave them some encouragement too, more like a gesture then anything else. Custer's men and Reno's too, actually cheered back to him, which made the Major yell to them to keep quite.
The men who saw this were Whiteman Runs Him, Curly and Martini, they all claimed to seeing Custer on top of a small hill, waving his hat. Martini said he shouted the words “we’ve got ‘em boys” which was to his own battalion.
Curly also said that he and Bouyer, watched the Reno battle in the valley from Weir point and noted the exuberance shown by Bouyer who was yelling and waving his hat, which could be what DeRudio saw when he was hiding in the trees, because I have always thought that this sighting was way too late to be Custer and the genuine sightings where all made after Reno crossed the river and before they formed skirmish.
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Post by Beth on Oct 20, 2017 21:14:12 GMT
Is White Man Runs Him's reputation for not changing stories better than either Curly or Martini?
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Oct 20, 2017 21:43:00 GMT
Yup!
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Post by yanmacca on Oct 21, 2017 10:25:38 GMT
True Beth, that the point that I am trying to make here, all this waving and Custer's men spotted on the bluffs. It seems like over the decades, authors and others have inserted their own take on things. Custer probably did see Reno's column and was also watching his own battalion moving in formation. The excitement comes when he sees the village for the first time, along with Reno's men riding right towards it. Now he could finally see things coming together and encourages his troops. That's why he wants orders sent to Benteen, as he knows that here is where the action is.
So if you were one of Reno's men and you saw this waving on the bluffs, then you would probably think he was waving at you, but in fact it was to his own battalion who where out of sight.
That is why I am looking at the battle in a different way and virtually stripping it back, because you have to try and forget what we know in hindsight and put your self in the shoes of the key players on that day. That is what I tried to do with the JSIT scenario.
So I will say that the sequence would be, that the two columns went parallel along Reno creek, Custer keeps on getting reports that there is activity in the valley, so he sends Cooke with orders for Reno to advance. He then waters his horses, which to me sounds like he knew that they were going off in another direction and over the bluffs, soon after this break they spot Indians on SSR and Custer went forwards in that direction in an effort to clear the area of enemy bands and hopefully get around the back, because he seemed to favor attacking in more then one direction and could see the benifit of hitting them were they never expected it and that is why he tried to keep his column out of view.
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Post by Beth on Oct 21, 2017 22:04:23 GMT
True Beth, that the point that I am trying to make here, all this waving and Custer's men spotted on the bluffs. It seems like over the decades, authors and others have inserted their own take on things. Custer probably did see Reno's column and was also watching his own battalion moving in formation. The excitement comes when he sees the village for the first time, along with Reno's men riding right towards it. Now he could finally see things coming together and encourages his troops. That's why he wants orders sent to Benteen, as he knows that here is where the action is. So if you were one of Reno's men and you saw this waving on the bluffs, then you would probably think he was waving at you, but in fact it was to his own battalion who where out of sight. That is why I am looking at the battle in a different way and virtually stripping it back, because you have to try and forget what we know in hindsight and put your self in the shoes of the key players on that day. That is what I tried to do with the JSIT scenario. So I will say that the sequence would be, that the two columns went parallel along Reno creek, Custer keeps on getting reports that there is activity in the valley, so he sends Cooke with orders for Reno to advance. He then waters his horses, which to me sounds like he knew that they were going off in another direction and over the bluffs, soon after this break they spot Indians on SSR and Custer went forwards in that direction in an effort to clear the area of enemy bands and hopefully get around the back, because he seemed to favor attacking in more then one direction and could see the benifit of hitting them were they never expected it and that is why he tried to keep his column out of view. I agree with your idea about how to look at the battle with what is new eyes-perhaps like we are the first on the scene and gathering the information from eye witnesses--primary sources-and no other. I am unsure though if Custer's watering his horses telegraphs he knew he would be heading in a different direction. Perhaps it was to give his horses another chance to get a drink. I am sure that Steve can set me straight if I am wrong but I think you can't just let a horse drink his fill of water in the conditions the animals had been under for several days.
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Oct 22, 2017 11:35:25 GMT
To pursue the notion of flow; I have suggested how Custer had seen the valley and organized the protection of his packs and Benteen's support for Reno. He also had seen the village extended a long way north and so knew where he had to go to reach his target. There should be no delay now and I do not believe there was, he headed straight to the north end of Battle Ridge with all five companies. However he had been seen in MTC, there are accounts of them coming down MTC and then turning off at Calhoun Hill (naturally not named as such in the accounts). After he was sighted in MTC the Cheyenne knew his plan. There were already shouts in the village of "they are going after our women and children". I believe Custer thought he could get to the end of the village and play havoc with those retreating from the village, mainly with the aim of separating them from and destroying their material goods. If he destroys their means of living then they must return to the reservation to survive. Akin to killing buffalo. Two moon reports that when he arrived at the north end of the village the women were preparing to flee and he told them to stop and to stay, as they would be safer in the village. He had guessed Custer's intent. More later. Cheers
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Post by yanmacca on Oct 22, 2017 13:46:31 GMT
Mac, as always I agree with your post.
But what always baffles me is the way that we think that the pack train needed protecting, don't forget that for most of that day it looked after itself and I suppose that was why it a B Company [45 men] and 92 [yes 92] trooper packers plus around 5-6 civilians in its ranks, which comes to a whopping 140-2 men, which is around what Reno had and certainly more then Benteen had, so I still think that the ammo packs would be more immediate to Custer rather than wasting Benteen's three companies to protect it.
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Post by quincannon on Oct 22, 2017 14:31:51 GMT
Why would Custer need ammunition Ian? When that message was sent he had not fired a round. It is always best to anticipate future need, but his anticipated need was not any more urgent than that of Reno.
Defense of you logistical trains is primarily one that should be within the parameters of pre-battle forethought. In other words you do not expose them in the first place when battle is next on you to do list. Custer fumble fart number one. Defense though is not really the issue. You can defend them, but defending a pack of animals requires not only that they be defended but preventing them from being scattered by virtue of combat. It this particular instance scattering = destruction, or at the very least unavailability for some critical period of time.
Nothing in that note suggested anything about the need for ammunition, nothing, and I do not believe Benteen had the mystical powers to read minds. That said we don't know if there was some SOP that called for such specific action when called forward. Absent any knowledge of that, we must take the word packs at face value.
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Post by yanmacca on Oct 22, 2017 17:57:27 GMT
Chuck, if I was a commander and I knew that my troops were going into action against a huge village containing thousands and with only 90-100 rounds per man, than I would want my spare ammo close by. We have read how quick it took for Reno's men to fire off all of their personal ammo and then leave the line to retrieve extra from their saddlebags. Reno's men were only skirmish for maybe 30 minutes, so it shows how quick you can expand your supply
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Post by quincannon on Oct 22, 2017 19:30:51 GMT
That's not the point. The point is that you thinking that is a reasonable course of action does not mean that Custer meant only for ammunition to come forward when he sent that note. If you insist on maintaining that the note was a call for ammunition alone you are presenting as fact something that is not and never was in evidence. The evidence says packs.
Now oddly enough there had been a solution to the tactical problem that has existed since the dawn of the age of firearms if not before. The solution is to divide your trains into two parts, the combat trains which are kept close by at company or battalion level which contain those supplies that need to be readily accessible like ammo and medical supplies, and in the later day fuel, and a field trains which contain the supplies for long term sustenance. No provision was made for this two tier approach, at LBH, and as I said above there may have been a hidden from us SOP that says - When I say packs, I mean ammo - but we do not know of any such SOP so ruminating on something we do not know is deceptive to those who read us and largely as waste of time.
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Oct 22, 2017 21:07:56 GMT
Good thoughts gentlemen. Let us return to evidence, both Benteen and Reno survived, I am not aware of any mention of there being an arrangement where Benteen knew packs means ammunition. My memory is the Benteen basically had no idea what was going on and was simply coming on and being alert. Cheers
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