mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Oct 15, 2017 21:13:29 GMT
In the theory broadly proposed, Custer goes right, presumably on the attack (can there be another reason?). He sees the village and valley and calls on Benteen to come on and bring the packs. Then he announces his presence at Ford B and leaves C and L and I around the south end of Battle Ridge to await the arrival of Benteen. Whatever one thinks of timelines, it is indisputable that the pack train took a very long time to reach Benteen and Reno. Who can believe that Custer did not understand the time it would take to bring the packs to, say, MTC? Please do not add or subtract from the note, bring packs....all of them! In the theory above there is a complete break in the "attack flow" of Custer's progress. If he is not "on the attack" then why does he cross MTC, why not wait for Benteen around 3411? Cheers
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Post by yanmacca on Oct 16, 2017 14:28:39 GMT
Mac, there are a few reports from soldiers who claimed that Custer initially turned right because he spotted a large band of Indians on the bluffs, in the direction of Sharp-Shooter Ridge, now I wonder that following this group, he inadvertently come across his first view of the village and made plans there and then to carry on in this direction and get around the back of it. Having been in this position, he saw Reno riding towards the village using the valley route and he knew that this would stir up the village and give him the element of surprize further north.
He would have also come to his attention that Benteen was way off base with his scout and would be badly needed, so he sends word for him to get involved and secondary to that, they would need the ammo packs.
But to me, that note was written in haste and Martini too was picked in haste, which you can’t blame them, because things would be pretty dam tense at that point.
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Oct 16, 2017 21:09:37 GMT
Interesting idea Ian...doubtful in my mind. As to the packs; no doubt he may have wanted ammo from the packs but it would seem to me that the note that mentions packs twice would simply say bring ammo packs or something similar. My view on the purpose of the note is probably well known. If anyone accepts that the note intended that Benteen should come to Custer; then they would have to explain to me why,when he needed the packs, Custer decided to put MTC between himself and Benteen and to also announce his presence to the village. No battle flow there. Cheers
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Post by Beth on Oct 17, 2017 1:02:02 GMT
Would he have wanted the ammo or just to protect the ammo? If they lost their pack due to an attack from the rear, they would have been a world of hurt. Was Custer able to see the entire village from the point he wrote the message or would he have wondered that the train was exposed to an attack?
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dave
Brigadier General
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Post by dave on Oct 17, 2017 3:14:50 GMT
If I might submit my opinion which is Custer did not mean "ammo packs" or he would have said "bring ammo" in his order carried by Martini. I think Custer was proceeding to attack the Indian villages and would have expected Benteen to escort the packs to Reno's position in the valley instead of to him. I have no reason to suspect that Custer was aware of Reno's being repulsed so his order to Benteen makes sense in that respect. "Benteen. Come on. Big Village. Be Quick. Bring Packs. P.S. Bring Pack. W.W. Cook."
AZ in one of his post's long ago made a very discerning point that officers are expected to change their orders as circumstances change and they are judged on this ability to adapt as required instead of just blindly following orders. This was one of the points QC raised recently regarding the Japanese failure to adjust and adapt as circumstances changed at Midway and other battles in WW II.
I wonder how the outcome of the battle might have changed if Benteen were not there? Who else was as competent in the 7th or the army? Regards Dave
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Post by yanmacca on Oct 17, 2017 12:20:13 GMT
Does brings packs actually mean bring the pack train of bring the ammo packs, so the only answer I can come up with is what would be more beneficial to the battle, the whole train or just the ammunition.
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Post by quincannon on Oct 17, 2017 15:57:14 GMT
Five things about when the order was sent:
1) Custer had no knowledge that Reno would be in trouble.
2) The note said packs.
3) The note did not say anything specific as to where to come, and to the best of our knowledge Martini did not augment the note with any verbal instructions to Benteen, nor did Kanipe.
4) Martini and Kanipe both left before Custer was committed to either Ford B or further northward so he could give Benteen no further knowledge of Custer's intention.
5) Custer's trail could clearly be seen going onto the bluffs, but gave no indication if it was to be a shallow envelopment(B) or deep envelopment (D)
Given the totality of what Benteen knew as summarized above, I tend to agree that Benteen would have been inclined to go directly into the valley.
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dave
Brigadier General
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Post by dave on Oct 17, 2017 16:22:27 GMT
Ian It would have been just as easy to say "ammo packs" as "packs" would it not? Even as harried as Cooke was, surely he would have stated "ammo" if that was Custer's desire to insure the success of the mission. I have read so many posts and articles about this order and yet 141 years later it is still being discussed by all. We have experienced combat vets, veterans, historians and others who cannot agree as to just what Custer wanted and directed Cooke to order.
This is the goodie of the whole battle which drives discussion and occasionally even heated arguments as to Custer's plans, or lack of, and what he wanted Benteen and the pack train to do. The Little Bighorn battle would have been relegated to the backwaters of American conflicts along with the likes of Perryville, Tippecanoe and Eniwetok if it had not been for Custer's total defeat and the famous "order" by Cooke assisted by the widow who played her role like a Stradivarius.
Custer and his performance has generated heated discussions that rivals that of Lee, Grant and MacArthur who are far more important in their roles in American history. Amazing that such a small back water fight be as well known as Gettysburg with nearly as many books and articles written. Wonder if Custer would have traded his life willingly for such fame and glory? Regards Dave
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Post by yanmacca on Oct 17, 2017 19:58:32 GMT
Dave, I don't know if anyone has ever done this before but, we have some officers on this board, so if we could ask them to try and act like an officer from the Victorian era, when mules and horses dragged everything for you and asked them what they would have thought when receiving that note [ammo packs or the whole train]
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Post by yanmacca on Oct 17, 2017 20:06:27 GMT
Interesting idea Ian...doubtful in my mind. As to the packs; no doubt he may have wanted ammo from the packs but it would seem to me that the note that mentions packs twice would simply say bring ammo packs or something similar. My view on the purpose of the note is probably well known. If anyone accepts that the note intended that Benteen should come to Custer; then they would have to explain to me why,when he needed the packs, Custer decided to put MTC between himself and Benteen and to also announce his presence to the village. No battle flow there. Cheers Mac, a band of Indians was spotted on the high ground on Custer's right , this was noted by the various survivors from GACs battalion. Now was this the reason why he went over the bluffs or not, because if I get my facts right, this maneuver was conducted without the presence of Lt. Cooke, who was on his way back from giving Reno his orders. So did Custer make a snap decision and head towards these Indians? if so then Cooke wouldn't know about it and neither would Reno. Once he gave chase and this band melted away, Custer could have got his first view of the Village, remember what the Crows said, Custer never went to the edge of the bluffs, but spotted the village from the high ground and waved his hat towards his men. This would be the time when he realized that he needed every part of his regiment.
Remember when I mentioned about first time I studied the JSIT map and saying that I thought that Custer went forward with all five, well I get the same feeling about this number as well, because him doing a solo recon is like him leaving three behind on battle ridge, because it makes no sense, once Custer saw the village ahead , he went for it.
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mac
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Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Oct 17, 2017 21:03:53 GMT
I think the only thing that can be rationally read from the note is that Custer realized that Benteen would find no action where he was and that the packs were exposed to the enemy as they came on to the valley. The order was to protect the packs by putting Benteen in control of them. That is exactly what happened and just seems to me to fit exactly with what would be expected. I am equally sure that Custer expected that Benteen would be prudent in his actions once he was in control of the pack train. This leaves Custer free to continue his attack (flow) towards the north of the village. No stop and reveal at Ford B just a quick thrust to Ford D and the attack. Why Custer chose this tactic may always be a mystery. He may have been trying to out flank what he saw as a defensive block by valley warriors (most likely to me) or he may as Ian reports have had some other reason. The simple fact is he did it. Remember that when he diverged he had no idea what the enemy disposition was in the valley. Cheers
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Post by Beth on Oct 17, 2017 21:08:27 GMT
Ian It would have been just as easy to say "ammo packs" as "packs" would it not? Even as harried as Cooke was, surely he would have stated "ammo" if that was Custer's desire to insure the success of the mission. I have read so many posts and articles about this order and yet 141 years later it is still being discussed by all. We have experienced combat vets, veterans, historians and others who cannot agree as to just what Custer wanted and directed Cooke to order. This is the goodie of the whole battle which drives discussion and occasionally even heated arguments as to Custer's plans, or lack of, and what he wanted Benteen and the pack train to do. The Little Bighorn battle would have been relegated to the backwaters of American conflicts along with the likes of Perryville, Tippecanoe and Eniwetok if it had not been for Custer's total defeat and the famous "order" by Cooke assisted by the widow who played her role like a Stradivarius. Custer and his performance has generated heated discussions that rivals that of Lee, Grant and MacArthur who are far more important in their roles in American history. Amazing that such a small back water fight be as well known as Gettysburg with nearly as many books and articles written. Wonder if Custer would have traded his life willingly for such fame and glory? Regards Dave I agree that it would have been just as easy to write ammo as pack. Personally I believe that the intention was to hurry on the packs so the regiment wasn't so spread out, especially as Custer continued at a high rate of speed northward. I believe (and please correct me if I am wrong) that the further away the back end of the unit was from the front, the more vulnerable they would have become to being isolated and attacked. It would have been a prime target for the NA not only for the ammo but also for the food. Custer feared the NA scattering, as they scattered ahead of him, it should have been a concern that the the warriors could reform their strength and attack the pack train, especially if Custer was too far ahead chasing the bulk of the village. At the time he sent the message, he had no idea the NA would not run. The packs were Custer's supply train, he should have unknown from experience that you don't want to move too far ahead of it.
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Post by quincannon on Oct 17, 2017 22:10:23 GMT
I was an officer/am an officer, and if I had received that note my first thoughts would have been
1) What in the name of Christ does that idiot want his combat and field trains up with his attacking echelon for?
2) The note did say packs, so that idiot must want everything.
3) That idiot is not that stupid not to realize that "quick" and "bring packs" don't belong in the same sentence.
4) I would have then used my own best judgment, and would have done everything just about the same way as Benteen.
WHEN YOU WANT AMMO, SAY AMMO - WHEN YOU WANT FOOD, SAY FOOD - WHEN YOU WANT WHATEVER, SAY WHATEVER
WHEN YOU SAY PACKS, YOU'RE GOING TO GET PACKS
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dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Oct 17, 2017 22:32:00 GMT
Custer's reputation, well deserved in my opinion, was that of a quick action with little prior thought. He pursued his prey with a single mindless attitude with little care of his flanks or supply train. He acted as a company commander instead of a regimental commander with his complete disregard for 7 companies and supplies behind him.
As often stated, he had no idea of Reno's situation and expected Benteen to handle the rear end and supply train while he attacked the village. I believe he had no idea of how large the Indian encampment was till he completely severed contact with the rest of his command and realized how vastly outnumbered he his 5 companies were. Hardly the performance of an experienced combat veteran was it? Regards Dave
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dave
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Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Oct 18, 2017 0:06:33 GMT
Mac Fred has often stated that order to Benteen was for him to bring the men who guarded the pack train instead of just the packs. This theory would entail that Benteen knew that Custer wanted him to come to the fight in the valley. I am not sure that Benteen had a clue that Reno had been rolled up and that Custer had proceeded too far north, BRE, and was not able to retreat south to join the rest of the regiment.
I wish I had military experience to back up my thinking but then I realize that Benteen had to use common sense in responding to the order as anyone would. Why Cook chose to use an Italian soldier who's English was weak to carry the note tells me he did not want Benteen coming to Custer. Surely Cook himself or another officer would have been sent if there were plans for a rendezvous between Benteen and Custer to explain where and how to join up, would he not? Regards Dave
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