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Post by quincannon on Jul 11, 2017 21:43:57 GMT
Never a truer word spoken.
We the living have an obligation to generations yet to come.
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Post by Beth on Jul 12, 2017 1:35:37 GMT
QC I remember seeing those lists in the Sunday bulletin growing up. I'm not sure when they disappeared-but once I realized what the lists were about I also realized that there were a bunch of priests who viewed or read every book or movie but somehow managed not to be morally corrupted by them. Of course now we know that just because a person is a man of the cloth does not mean he lives a moral life. I understand what Dave is saying because in a way we are forcing him to feel he has to defend his beliefs. We need to frame the discussion in such a way that no one feels threatened by such a basic right. The progress of women both in America and the rest of the world can be discussed within framework that doesn't have include those imposed limits because of religion. However hopefully it is always understood that female pioneers in any field in nearly any country have been limited not by their capability because they are just as equal as men, but by religious prejudice. Perhaps this graphic explains it best. Now that that is off my chest if we can proceed to discuss. Perhaps this is a good place to begin with a discussion of early female pilots is: Smithsonian
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dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Jul 12, 2017 2:48:35 GMT
When I obtained my private pilot's license in 1988 my flight instructor was a 23 year woman who had over 1,000 flight hours. My thighs were bruised for weeks from her hammering me for not landing on the runway stripe, not near but on. Her passion for excellence was transferred to me not only in flying but in my work habits as well.
I served for 3 years as an Assistant Dean of Students under the Dean was a woman. My Vice Chancellor was a woman as was the Provost (her college roommate was Hilary Clinton) and my wife and I have been happily married for 45 years. All this being said to the effect that I have no problems being with, working for or living with a woman.
So I am very familiar with the barriers many woman had to cross and many are still crossing and fully support their efforts. Aviation has been an avenue of progress that women have availed since 1910 when Baroness Elise Raymonde de Laroche became the first woman to gain an pilot's license.
Today the junior Senator from Illinois, Tammy Duckworth, is an US Army pilot who lost both her legs in combat. Arizona Congresswoman Martha Elizabeth McSally, was the first woman to fly combat missions in the US Air Force. We have 60 woman who were or are astronauts so that filed is wide open for young girls to dream and prepare for.
So I believe Amelia would be very pleased as to the progress woman have made and will make in the years to come. Regards Dave
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Post by quincannon on Jul 12, 2017 3:49:26 GMT
Dave: I am certainly happy that you point out all the progress that has been made by women who are in any way tangential to your life.
Real progress in the world though will be made when you and everyone else does not require mentioning gender when someone does something. That is the goal we should all strive for.
Duckworth and McSally are role models for women in aviation and women in general. McSally graduated from the trade school just up the road. But before you tout their achievements further, inquire of the views of the current vice president on women in uniform, and why he holds those views. I will give you a hint. The word begins with R.
So don't go crowing to me about all this progress, not yet, not until Neanderthals like Pence are no longer around.
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dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Jul 12, 2017 15:54:44 GMT
Sorry you took my comments as "crowing" as that was not my intent. I fail to see how throwing Pence into this conversation is a positive move but to each their won. I druther discuss positive progress than bemoaning personal political comments and beliefs which never end in agreement. Regards Dave
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Post by quincannon on Jul 12, 2017 16:41:55 GMT
You may take crowing to mean pride in accomplishment. That is a good thing.
Doing a victory dance in the end zone before the final whistle blows, now that can be a very bad thing, as in premature, an action taken preliminary to final outcome.
Pence is representative in this case, of all those regardless of name or party, who wish women, and others for that matter, people who do not share their beliefs to be denied and shut off for the mainstream of life in our society as it exists today. Some reasons are social, and some reasons are religious in nature. I point to Pence because he has made several public pronouncements on the subject at hand and freely admits that it is because of the tenets of his religious beliefs.
I do not give a flying f&&k what his religious belief are, I do care what the Constitution says. That is what I have been trying to get at throughout all these conversations. Religion and the Constitution do not mix, Religion and politics do not mix. We have no one religion in this country, and that is on purpose, So I say to Pence and his fellow travelers - Tough shit take your religion and its beliefs and stick the high up your ass, because this country follows the Constitution, the rule of law and of man, which from time to time is in concert with the precepts laid down by God.
Take a good look at that cartoon Beth posted. That is how religious zealotry is viewed by intelligent people.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 12, 2017 17:28:11 GMT
Equality under the law is the guarantee, not the objective. Equality under the law is a guarantee under the Constitution.
When one belongs to a portion of society, or a religion, or other organization that does not recognize that guarantee by their own precepts, it becomes a Constitutional food fight.
In the Catholic Church women are prohibited by church doctrine from being ordained. That is unequal treatment of women. I do not care what excuse is offered as to why that doctrine is in place, it is still the unequal treatment of women in these United States. We also have that troubling little statement in the First Amendment about freedom of religion. There is conflict then that exists between equality and that freedom. Perhaps that is one of the reasons that people leave the Catholic Church in droves and have since about 1960 and the changes that came about as a result of Vatican I and II and the emergence of women themselves in our society. Blame it all on Rosie the Riveter.
So who will eventually win this struggle? Women will, but that is still a long way off.
What if though, all our law was dictated by religious beliefs. What if the law said that you had to be Roman Catholic to serve in Congress, or national office? What if all our laws said that they had to pass Catholic muster? What would then make us different from those countries where Islamic Law is paramount? None that I can see.
God does not have a seat in Congress. There is no religious test. We may Trust in God, but it would be ill advised to let Him anywhere near the United States Code.
Just because the prescription of a given religion is good for one man, does not mean it is good for a country.
There is one bit of truth that it would be well for all to heed in this regard. You cannot call forth those disadvantaged by existing law, as we did with women, Blacks, and others during World War II, and say we need you, then at the end of a crisis put them back in the box they were in before. They will not accept it, as we have seen in both the civil rights and women's movements in this country. All that will happen is that you will come to realize that Pandora's Box has been opened, and the country will be forever changed by it. That is a hard thing for many to accept as it happens. Societal norms are modified or in most case cast aside, a new day dawns, but the sun rises ever so slowly. It will reach its zenith though. Try as one might it cannot be stopped, not by government, not by religion, not by any other element in a given society, and those institutions will be run over like a freight train. The only variable is the time it will take for full acceptance of a new order of things.
Those, like Pence and others on the ultra right are fighting a rear guard action which will be overcome by the mass of the forces arrayed against them, and they will lose. It is inevitable.
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carl
Recruit
Posts: 48
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Post by carl on Jul 12, 2017 19:17:13 GMT
Mike Pence: I'm a Christian, a conservative, and a Republican, in that order.
Lyndon B. Johnson:
“I am a freeman, an American, a United States Senator, and a Democrat, in that order.”
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Post by yanmacca on Jul 12, 2017 19:29:02 GMT
I have no problem with Women having equal status as my Doctor, Dentist and Physiotherapist are all women, and what a great job they do too, plus the leaders of Northern Island, Scotland and Wales are all women, plus the over all leader of England and Great Britain Theresa May. And don't forget our figurehead Her Majesty Queen Liz.
C'mon America stop dragging your feet and get a Woman in the White House.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 12, 2017 19:42:36 GMT
"I am a Christian, a conservative, and a Republican in that order"
That is truly a sad state of affairs in having a piece of trash like that, with that order of priority, as the Vice President of the United States.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 12, 2017 22:01:50 GMT
ML: The fight is never over. You may be retired as I am myself but our obligation to fight did not stop the day we cut that cake and accepted our gold watch.
I rail about Pence, whom I think is the most dangerous man on the American scene today. Much more dangerous to the overall well being of the country than the man who occupies the White House, or anyone who has previously held that office including James Buchanan.
I do not know if you or Dave or some of the others here have ever taken an oath for a Federal Office, large or small. I know some like Colt, Carl, Steve, Will, Tom, Benteen, Kevin, and others have. One of the things included in that oath is that you take it freely, without mental reservation, or purpose of evasion. More about that in a moment.
When you take it though you swear, you pledge your sacred honor, to the United States and the idea this country is based on, the Constitution. The United States and the Constitution then becomes superior to everything else in your life, including your spouse, your children, grandchildren, mother, father, your family, your personal wealth and well being, your political affiliation or beliefs, your political party, your membership in the Elks Club or Knights of Columbus, your neighborhood, friends, and yes God Himself. The ironic part is that you implore the help of God in keeping faith with that oath.
If you are unwilling to take that oath and the superiority of Country and Constitution, to all other considerations, then that oath should not be taken. That is the meaning of taking it freely.
Pence having publicly made that statement that Carl reported is itself a violation of his oath of office. He is putting Religion, political beliefs, and political affiliation ahead of his duties to the Constitution and freely admits doing so. That constitutes mental reservation and purpose of evasion. His oath is invalid and he should be removed from office because of it.
Now I don't care that he is a professed Christian, a conservative, or even a Republican. I know a hell of a lot of them including the woman I am married to. I honor their friendships and my privilege to be associated with any and all of them. None of them though put those three factors of their being before Country and Constitution. That is the issue.
Now I first took that oath when I was eighteen years old and have had reason to renew it with every office I have entered into. I am now seventy four and that oath is just as real and valid to me today as when I first took it. I am still bound by it, and will be until the day I die. So anyone who wishes to know how I feel about things, things they may wish to argue with me about, then all they have to do is read this paragraph and those that immediately come before it.
If you are an American it must be about Country and Constitution first, and all others following in any order you may wish them to be in, but Country and Constitution must always be at the top of the list
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Post by quincannon on Jul 12, 2017 22:54:32 GMT
Balance, that is a word I love. Personally I am a titch right of center on most things, but address them issue by issue.
What you are seeing now is that a band of foxes control the henhouse. OK, that is what the people voted for, and the Constitution mandates that they retain that power until the next election. All well and good.
What we will see though is that these folks now in power will never produce any legislation signed into law that the American people will fully accept. In fact they may not accept it at all. They are making the exact same mistake that has been made for the last thirty years when one party controls the Congress and the White House. It is the very same mistake that the Democrats made circa 2009-10. They got their asses handed to them for their misjudgments, and the Republicans will have the same thing happen, either the next time or the time after next.
The American people will never accept legislation pushed through by only one side. They never have. In the Senate there are about 70 out of 100 who are basically middle of the road, some a little right, some a little left, but both near enough to the center line to achieve compromise. Sixty percent of what you want is better than nothing, and these folks will realize this in the by and by. Their jobs depend upon it. The other thirty are whackadoos of the extreme right or left. The only difference between Warren and Paul is a D or R after their name. Both represent the extreme fringe, and the American people in 241 years have never accepted extreme anything.
If you are a praying girl though you had better get down on your knees this very night and pray that Donald Trump neither dies or is impeached. I have no doubt he is incompetent, completely unfit by both temperament and motivation to fulfill the duties of his office, and is probably a criminal both before and after he assumed the office of the presidency. That said I would rather him be retained in office than have that bastard Pence as president. Hell I would rather have your junior senator in that office than Pence. Pence is smart and will push through his perverted agenda. Cruz is dumb as a box of rocks, but having said that will still live up to the dignity of the office.
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Post by Moderator1 on Jul 13, 2017 1:18:36 GMT
I have to set in with my moderator cap on which is difficult because this is a subject I could almost write a book.
Please move on from Pence and CURRENT politics which by the nature of the current administration must also include the most recent past administration. This has never been and will never be a current event board. It is one thing to discussion what individual women have gone through in a gain equality but please stay away from Trump, Hilary, Obama, their running mates and policies.
It is more important to have a board that functions under the basis of respect and friendships than the ability to score political points, especially because we are at a historic place in history where people are entrenched in their opinions. What is said here will not change anyone's opinion and will put this board's harmony at risk.
Feel free to talk about your own experiences, the experiences of the women in your life and historic women. We have have been able to come so far based on those who have gone before. The journey of women in history should be a concern to all because each generation is defined by how they treat those other members in society who are denied acceptance and equity.
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Post by Beth on Jul 13, 2017 2:45:08 GMT
I agree that women have made great strides but, they are far from equal. I worked in a so called "man's" workplace (factory) for 26 years. When I first started, the old "you are taking a man's job that he needs to support his family" attitude was still in place. It slowly started to change and when Maytag closed, it was nearing a 50/50 ratio of men and women. But, that being said, as I advanced up, I had to work twice as hard to get the next position up as men did. And, even as I proved myself, I was often patronized because I was a woman. My view on women's rights is that in this day and age, we should not have to talk about equal rights for women. But, we still do because there is a long way to go. My concern now is that there is a movement to reverse that progress by many in our government and they are the ones that make the laws. That is why I agree with what QC is saying but I do not think Dave was "crowing". We are finding ourselves having to fight battles again that have already been won. This is the frustration of it all. Finally, equality for all is not an opinion, it is a fact. We are all born and we all die and in between, we should all be judged by our "character" as MLK stated. ML I had the same experiences in the workplace even though it was not a male dominated workplace every person in the higher paying jobs were men while women were limited to production and machinist assistants. I was working in the QC department at Bournes and they gave classes to every shift to become a Certified Quality Control Tech. The Dept head who I will call DS was very much into statistical process control and thought everyone under his tutelage would pass. He was also huge keister as well as patronizing as heck This was a test that was given to all the local factories, not just the one I worked in. I know there were people from Whirlpool and Sundstrand as well as some from Des Moines, but am uncertain if Maytag had people there. I don't know how the other companies did but two people passed the test out of the 10 from Bournes: A male engineer and myself. The company newspaper announced that one person had passed the test, the engineer who then got a promotion. I had been moved out of QC and into production in a departmental downsize in the time between testing and when the results were announced. I found out much later that there were rumors I had somehow cheated because I brought in a CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics--one of the accepted references that could be brought in based on a list that was given out. Everyone was allowed to bring in one reference book and your class material but any material brought in had to be available to all. I used the book for one fact and then followed the rule by placing the book in the middle of the table for the use of all. It's not my fault no one else realized what the book was and how to use it. I will say that the one fact I got (the weight in grams of one cubic cm of water) was used in figuring out the volume and then the weight of the water inside for a huge number of questions that involved shapes--like a barrel, a canister, a box, a cone and other shapes. The formulas to figure out the volume was in our class material but if you didn't know the weight of water, you were screwed. It's important to know what information a reference source will have and how to use it. My shift supervisor and the department head in production were so angry that I wasn't acknowledged as passing the test, that they had some very strong words for both the plant manager and DS. DS moved along to another factory very shortly thereafter and I was caught in one of the waves of layoffs just a couple of months later. Such is life because leaving there after 10+ was probably one of the best things that happened to me.
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Post by mlynn on Jul 13, 2017 14:52:08 GMT
I must say that being patronized is frustrating and stressful but, looking back, I realize that those events caused me to kick into gear to overcome any knowledge and skill gaps. When I because a team leader, I had to learn robotics, leadership skills, record keeping and other problem solving skills. I had to learn mechanical basics in order to fix the broken. Men usually called maintenance when things when wrong and nothing was said but, when I was in charge, it became a female cannot understand the mechanics of machinery thing. My stubborn nature enabled me to learn things that I never would of bothered to learn. My last job involved using different kinds of tools, gages, equipment and chemicals to find the answers to problems. I had an exceptional, engineer boss who took time to sit and teach me the what, whys and hows of mechanical workings. I learned more than anyone in our department basically, because I was the only one who was willing to learn it. Many hid behind the Union contract and refused to go the extra mile. BTW, that statement is nothing against Unions. It also is about the time I learned that free education, offered by Maytag, was a perk I was going to take advantage of. All of this I viewed as personal growth, so I guess things do happen for a reason.
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