Did Benteen Dawdle?

[quincannon]

No more than a mile to mile and a half behind him.

Of course that would be totally impossible by Custer's own hand.

The moment any wedge formed between Custer in the north and Reno/Benteen in the south Custer was dog food.

After Reno broke out, and as the Indians became informed of Custer's presence in the north, the quickest way to get at Custer was across Ford B. It makes no difference at that point if the Calhoun/Keogh area was occupied or not. Indians coming from Reno, would naturally cross at B to get behind Custer. Once they were in place, or even coming into place Custer was trapped. He had nowhere to go. He also had no way of knowing it, and probably never did. Companies C, I, and L knew it, but I doubt if Custer ever did.

Using the five up scenario as we are all prone to do these days, Custer knowing would have forced him into a perimeter instead of an attempted southward withdrawal.

[quincannon]

Ian: What sort of detail are you talking about. One good man with a pair of eyes would have probably been sufficient.

I do not like the Victorian era ideas of nobility in death, and I suspect that the professionals among those officers did not like it any more than I do.

Don't kid yourself Ian, those guys knew he had been whacked, the bright ones anyway. Knowing and admitting you know are two different things. If there were any doubters, that doubt was removed at Weir Point.

It is more along the lines of thinking that the Titanic cannot sink, in fact it is just like that when that ship close by saw the distress signals.

I dispute the idea these officers were totally in the dark. They knew Reno had his ass handed to him by a very large number of Indians. They could see a good part of that village from where they were. I assume that all of them could count. I do not believe there was a man among them that did not have a pretty good idea of the odds and at least partial situational awareness. The only thing they did not know specifically was Custer's location. That is all they lacked. Custer's location though was not an immediate necessity to them. When they did go to Weir Point though, every one knew exactly where Custer was. They then knew two things. 1) Custer was dead, and 2) They would be too if they did not form a perimeter and prepare it for defense before night fall.

Any professional would have come to those same conclusions based upon what Reno and Benteen knew after about 17:00 hours that first day.

[quincannon]

Ian, I and many others here have stood on the same ground that Reno and Benteen did when they viewed the Custer portion of the battlefield from Weir Point.

I do not believe those that have would dispute the fact that seeing a thousand or more Indians moving about those precincts, some firing into the ground, would have any more doubt than I that Custer was there, and that he was dead. I would like to here alternative opinions if any.

Now I am not all that bright, but if I can imagine that, those people that actually saw it I believe would quickly form the same conclusion.

Add to that the fact that the Indians were quick to break off from what they were doing, reform and move against Reno/Benteen, and that too tells the story.

What you heard after the battle were from people who lost friends and wished they could have done more, with probably some denial mixed in. Same thing you see from police and firefighters who have lost comrades in either a firefight or fire. There is a certain degree of guilt and denial that sets in. It is a human thing. They are after all humans. They do not wish to believe what is before their eyes. That still does not mean they could have done anything to change the outcome.

To understand battle you must first understand the people that fight battles. There are people in New York City nearly sixteen years after the event that still say in their darkest moments if only, if I, if we, and every one of them know that they could have done no more than they did. 

[quincannon]

Getting back to this detail business. You might wonder why I would send one or two out, and not something stronger.

The answer is very simple. I do not want there to be any temptation to fight if they are detected, for the following reasons:

1) I need information, not a lost squad.

2) If I lose one or two, those are the breaks of the game. I cannot afford to lose one or two, but I would rather lose one or two that eight or ten.

3) The chances of being detected are smaller with the lower number.

4) If that one or two get no further than five hundred meters and return because they must, that too is information that I desperately need.

5) I want no fighting. I want seeing.

John Ford would not do it that way, but I would

[deadwoodgultch]

Jun 22, 2017 20:32:45 GMT Beth said:

Just for the record where do you think Benteen would have had to have been on the trail to have been able reunite with Custer?  Of course I tend to believe if that had happened then the entire 7th would have been wiped out

Benteen told Custer that the command should be kept together, Custer told Benteen you have your orders, Captain. Short of that he should have recalled Benteen before or at the same time he sent Reno across Ford A and given him new orders.

[deadwoodgultch]

He who fails to plan, plans to fail!

[dave]

QC
To get back to your earlier statement regarding no one stopping Weir's executive officer LT Edgerly from following him that Benteen should have. How was Benteen to stop them when they were taking off? Was Benteen's actions of sallying after him that wrong? Weir's company was isolated and would they not need support to return?

Benteen had no way to know for sure that Custer and his command were dead till he was atop Weir's Point and saw the Indians alone riding around the dust and smoke covered hillside miles away. Would he not have been censured for not attempting to determine GAC's fate?

I look forward to your thoughts on this matter.
Regards
Dave

[quincannon]

Neither Reno (the commander) or Benteen, or anyone else gave an order for Company D to move one blessed inch. Someone should have been sent to recall that company. If Edgerly refused to stop he should have been placed under arrest, and the unit turned over to the next senior man, and the process continued until such a time as the order to recall has been obeyed. If he resisted arrest he should be summarily shot. Battle ain't beanbag.

No, if your asking me if I am willing to spend men's lives to extract a disobedient company commander or company officer, and that company, the answer is an unequivocal no. I do not, given that same situation, have those resources to waste.

Who ever said you have to know anything for sure. Custer was not Reno's or Benteen's responsibility. Those combined battalions were their responsibility.

Any officer who gives a second thought about possible censure, when he either knows or believes himself to be making the right decision or choosing the correct course of action does not deserve to wear the rank.

No one ever said the decisions that must be made in combat are easy. Anyone thinking they are, needs to find a new line of employment.

[yanmacca]

I maybe wrong here but didn't Weir and his striker take off without informing Edgerly? I am sure that he saw his commander move out and he simply mounted up the company and followed.

I am not saying that Weir thought that his second in command would follow instinctively or he was ok with them staying behind and waiting for him to return.

That's the point though, was Weir just going to see if he could pick up a trail and see if Custer was still active, then return to gather his company and then inform Reno.

One question for the ex-military, if Weir saw Custer in a defensive position similar to Reno hill, and then gave this info to Reno and Benteen, would Reno and his substantially larger force plus packs be obliged to go to Custer as a relieve force or stay put.

[quincannon]

1) You are not wrong. That is exactly what happened. Edgerly made a mistake in moving without orders. As far as we know Weir gave him nothing in the way of indication follow me. Edgerly should have been immediately recalled, and the episode ended. Edgerly moving off is what prompted the forward movement of everyone prematurely/

2) Don't know, nor does anyone else.

3) Don't know, but my bet would be none of the above, all of the above, some of the above, or most likely hissy fit.

4) Weir could not see Custer from Weir Point. The only thing we know he saw was a thousand or more Indians firing. He may have seen the remains of Company C. He may have seen the remains of Company L. Company I"s position was masked by terrain, and was that of Companies E and F. Had he gone back and reported what he saw, Reno was under no obligation to go to Custer. Reno's obligation was to then dig in and prepare to defend.

This situation is very similar to the one that faced Houston during the Alamo siege. It was known that the Alamo was under siege when Houston arrived at Gonzalez. The Mounted Ranging Company had left a few days before headed to the Alamo in Weir like fashion, misplacing their imagined duty to friends and associates above their greater duty to Texas. Houston knew the Alamo could not hold. Houston had good intelligence that told him so. Houston placed his duty to Texas above his duty to his many friends in the Alamo, knowing they were doomed, and rightly so. Houston took just as much grief, as Reno and Benteen, for his actions at the time, and until after San Jacinto for his decision. He was called and thought to be a coward by the men he commanded until 19 April 36 when his decision proved to all that it was the correct one.

The key word here is DUTY. It must be clearly seen, and will not often win any popularity contests by the seeing.

[BrevetorCoffin]

Correct me if I am wrong here: it is my understanding that Reno sent word to Edgerly to have Weir attempt to make contact with Custer. A bit late but instead of recalling Edgerly, he was encouraged to communicate Reno's message to Weir. Face saving? No idea.

This event occurrd AFTER Edgerly moved out so his initial act of following Weir did not have Reno's stamp of approval but more of a 'now that you are moving you might as well...."

[quincannon]

I don't know. Maybe someone else does.

Regardless, failing to immediately recall Company D was an error, that prompted further errors.

No one can possibly condone sending a company out to retrieve an idiot, except another idiot.

Think about what would have happened if no one followed. Nothing. Weir would have seen the same thing. Unless he had a death wish, which I think highly probable because of a high degree of self inflicted emotional distress, he would have turned around on his own accord, reported, ask for and received forgiveness, and Reno would have had all the information he needed to make further decisions.

[dave]

If I understand correctly what I have read, when Weir left, Reno. was down the bluffs looking for Hodgson's body. Weir, Benteen and Reno all admitted there was no conversation before Weir's movement. It has been speculated that Reno was not aware of Weir's leaving till about 20 to 30 minutes later. Reno and Weir did have heated words but it was later that night.

If Weir and Edgerly were guilty of insubordination then it follows that Benteen was as well when he left to go after Company D. When all three failed to respond to Reno's "Halt" call were they not all guilty?
Regards
Dave

[yanmacca]

I think that after Reno returned and found out the situation, then they must of had a discussion on what to do next, because they then sent out three or four companies to follow Weir and also organized a moving column for the wounded and the packs.
When I said three or four companies, I am not sure if Reno wanted B Company to stay and help to move the wounded.

[quincannon]

Guilty of what Dave, making a mistake and compounding it? Yes they did.

Whomever was there in charge should have recalled Edgerly. The fact that this was not done was a mistake. Taking off after Edgerly left was also a mistake. Reno going down to the river after Hodgson was a mistake. Many mistakes were made that afternoon, by otherwise decent men, but men who should have known better. What happened to Reno effected them all. It should not have, but it did. Where was Custer effected them all. It should not have, but it did.

There is no insubordination in the absence of orders. Had someone been sent after any of these people, and they refused to obey a recall, that would be insubordination. Is anyone sure that any of those people heard a recall being blown. I'm not. Reno lost control. Benteen lost control. Edgerly did not know what to control, and Weir lost control of his emotions.

This stuff happens when all involved read their own press clipping too much, and find out the hard way that those press clippings are fake news.