dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Jun 20, 2017 20:44:25 GMT
Benteen was a professional and knew how to take care of both horse and men. Passing a water supply, however small, with horses that had not watered in over 16 hours would be criminal I believe. I have yet to see any evidence that Benteen spent more than 30 minutes watering his command of 3 companies. Ian mentioned many moons ago that arriving with horses that had not been watered would be akin to arriving at a battle with tanks empty of fuel, ala the Germans at Bastogne and he is right.
AZ has proven over and over that the terrain Benteen traveled was terrible for horses and he traveled at appropriate speed til he received Cooke's order and then went at a gallop to the river where he was directed to the bluffs and Reno's command. His actions at Reno's order are well known and need not be listed here.
Reno was drinking while in the flats has been attested too but so was Varnum and others he mentioned in his testimony. The question is how much did Reno consume? A hard drinker like him would require more than was contained in his flask to be unable to function. I believe the shock he suffered with Bloody Knife's brains and blood coupled with the situation he found his command in effected him more than liquor. No one has ever provided a detailed maneuver better than the retrograde---retreat---he selected to escape the hostiles in the timber.
At Reno's Court of Inquiry 23 witnesses were called to testify and none testified against his behavior and/or actions. He was damned by faint praise by some but no one alleged he was drunk. Only B.F. Churchill and John Frett, civilian packers made accusations of drunkenness against him but they had run afoul of Reno the night of June 25th. Reno was left in the in position of proving a negative. Regards Dave
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 21, 2017 14:32:25 GMT
I also so think that some of these doubters should put their selves in Reno's shoes, he was hemmed in to a row of timber in which communication was hard to achieve between company commanders and junior officers, he was initially forced into this position by the growing number of hostiles which had now begun to surround him, add to to this the fact that they were taking fire too, now he may have lost it a little at some point, but you can imagine that a lot of yelling was taking place and noise too.
Now they then undertook a ride of hell by being chased along the valley bottom by mounted Indians, now I don't know how long this ride took, but I would imagine that it seemed like eternity with impending death coming at you from every angle.
It was no wonder that this battalion became a shattered unit on Reno hill, I bet the Major was shaking too.
Now place any of these Reno knockers in this same situation and lets see if they do any better.
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Post by BrevetorCoffin on Jun 21, 2017 16:16:40 GMT
You mean Count von B might have turned tail and ran as well? I am tempted to pull a Herosrest and post pics of Super Chicken! For those unfamiliar with Saturday Morning Cartoons of the 60's, Super Chicken was yet another Hanna Barbera concoction along the lines of Tennessee Tuxedo, The Jetsons, etc.
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Post by BrevetorCoffin on Jun 21, 2017 16:33:18 GMT
Should say Hanna Barbera-esque as Super Chicken was not a Hanna Barbera concoction. The exploits of Count von B also remind me of the Monty Python ditty, Brave Sir Robin.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 21, 2017 17:30:43 GMT
Well it was a breakout from encirclement, not a retreat or retrograde. Needs to be continually harped on Dave, because they are not done in the same way.
Breaking out was the right decision made at the right time, or just a smidgen late. Nevertheless it was the right thing to do.
Benteen stopping was also the right thing to do. Dawdling has nothing to do with watering horses, except in the mind of idiots like the Queen's Cavalier and his acolytes. You either do it when the opportunity presents itself, just like refueling your tanks, or you will conduct the big dawdle when they all drop dead of thirst.
Reno was obviously caught up in the stress of the moment. Humans are like that. They all have frailties. I find fault with that, but also can fully understand it.
Benteen should have never permitted any forward movement toward Custer. He was in a spot as to how to prevent it, but he should have found a way.
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dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Jun 21, 2017 20:26:10 GMT
Ian Those who criticize Reno have never been able to grasp that time had run out for staying in the flats. I read where he should of could of stayed another 15 or 30 minutes from these amateur strategists based on their feelings or beliefs but never of hard cold facts. He faced a Hobson's choice of life or death, period! Not executing a breakout would have insured 100% casualties. As I have mentioned before, no one has ever suggested a better maneuver or action that Reno could of taken.
Benteen could not bypass Reno and was correct to stay and consolidate the command. The soiree to Weir Point is a smudge on Benteen's escutcheon to many but I am not sure what how he was going to prevent Weir's leaving and don't understand Fred'd behavior chasing off after him. But if that is his only mistake then he did very well. Regards Dave
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Post by BrevetorCoffin on Jun 21, 2017 20:39:32 GMT
There may have been a twinge of conscience in the Weir Point maneuver. Imagine if Benteen and Reno had not made any attempt to find Custer.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 21, 2017 20:51:17 GMT
Any attempt to find does not require a gypsy wagon train to do the finding. Several pairs of eyes will do quite nicely. No excuse.
If Weir wants to stick his head in an oven, by all means let him. Who tried to stop his XO? No one. Why not? No excuse.
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 22, 2017 10:18:24 GMT
Yes a detail could have gone ahead and soon found out what was going down up north, but the orders to drag the wounded along on this quest was wrong in my book, I would have rather move them back south if anything and found a better location, at least you are moving them away from danger as just an hour before hundreds of Indians were coming from the north and from a huge village, now all this was seen by Reno, and now he wants to drag wounded men back towards that place again, just doesn't sit well with me.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 22, 2017 13:42:00 GMT
Move away to the south, and I would gladly testify at your court martial Ian, for you would be rightly charged with dereliction of duty.
You are on decent ground to defend. Not great, but decent. You would be moving away in direct contradiction and disobedience of Custer's last order. I find no justification for such a move.
You are correct in not moving the wounded. You would not be correct in leaving them there unattended. You cannot afford the loss of combat power it would take to guard them.
The situation, from the point of view of a commander on that hilltop, is completely uncertain. You are a blind man who needs desperately to see. Were you blinded, your first inclination before making any movement is to see.
Not sending at least two, two man patrols out to see, was in my view the greatest mistake made by Reno and/or Benteen.
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 22, 2017 13:55:40 GMT
If you did decide to leave the wounded and packs behind, then the majority of the trooper packers would also have to stay, but this unit of around 80 men would first be used to make up the numbers lost to Reno in the valley so that seven companies could be fully mounted a manned to around 40 men each,that would give the formation a strength of 280 men. Not enough I don't think to save Custer's command.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 22, 2017 17:42:20 GMT
Ian: Custer was dead before Weir got a gleam in his eye, if not literally, certainly tactically.
Another one of those pesky little principles - Never reinforce defeat.
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colt45
First Lieutenant
Posts: 439
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Post by colt45 on Jun 22, 2017 19:33:31 GMT
As the saying in the army goes "Don't feed failure". Spend your combat power where you are winning, not where you are failing.
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Post by Beth on Jun 22, 2017 20:32:45 GMT
Just for the record where do you think Benteen would have had to have been on the trail to have been able reunite with Custer? Of course I tend to believe if that had happened then the entire 7th would have been wiped out
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 22, 2017 21:16:57 GMT
Ian: Custer was dead before Weir got a gleam in his eye, if not literally, certainly tactically. Another one of those pesky little principles - Never reinforce defeat. I know that Chuck, that's why I putting the case forward for sending a detail instead, but I bet that in this era [Victorian] that most officers would do something along these lines and put forward a force to carry on forward, don't forget that most of these officer never thought of Custer being wiped out. Hindsight can cloud the issue and these officer were totally in the dark.
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