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Post by Beth on Mar 3, 2017 0:05:27 GMT
Colt45: The only time our mortar platoon dismounted the guns was for maintenance of guns or the vehicle itself. I remember the guys hating to move that heavy bitch around. With Patton as our CG, we never dismounted the mortars during field exercises. He wanted everything to be mobile and mobile very quickly. So the mortar platoon always practiced shooting from the vehicle. HHQ had a couple of troops assigned to run wire for field phones to/from the mortar platoon to battalion HQ. They would hook up a spool of wire to the back of a jeep and lay wire between the two points rather quickly. Worked quite well. Eliminated the need to use the radios for just the reason Chuck laid out.
When I was the supply officer I had to keep ordering spools of wire since they very seldom recovered the wire they laid once the training was over.
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Post by Beth on Mar 3, 2017 0:06:07 GMT
QC: While Colt had his 113's, we carried ours in M37 3/4 ton trucks, and later in Gama Goats. We did not have the option of firing from a vehicle. We always had to dismount and hump that beast.
The way I did it, and if differs from unit to unit, is divide the platoon in half, separating them sometimes half a mile. When you get a fire mission, only half the platoon fires the mission, while the other half is silent. When the mission is complete you move those two tubes, to a place you have preselected in advance. The other half of the platoon accepts the next mission, as the other half is displacing. Thereby you are following the Prime Directive - Close and continuous fire support.
My back is aching thinking about this. Remember when you are doing this stuff, everyone gets into the act, including platoon leaders. You never have full seven man crews and everyone must lend a hand getting those guns in, up, and shooting.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 3, 2017 0:12:14 GMT
Now Ian can ask about Old Baldy and not be referring to me. Heartbreak Ridge and not think it is Heartbreaker Beth. Won't have to associate Gama Goat with Tom. See, all sorts o good things can come of this.
Second "Once and Eagle" and absolute must read if you wish to understand the U S Army. It's still available. Saw a trade paperback edition at Barnes and Noble just the other day.
If you want to get into organization, stay away from those quickie paperbacks especially those written by Philip Katcher. He is a numbskull, and never saw right he could not interpret wrongly.
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Post by yanmacca on Mar 3, 2017 12:02:06 GMT
Chuck, as you know I am big on military organization, I do recall you mention about duff books and sites and I think I ran some by you, but I am very proud of my American company section on my web site, as every single one of them was done in line with the US War department tables of organization and it spot on.
I would to see Speilberg do a re-make of Pork Chop Hill, as it is relevant to want is going down in Korea to this day.
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Post by yanmacca on Mar 3, 2017 12:37:09 GMT
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Post by yanmacca on Mar 3, 2017 12:39:07 GMT
Here are some US chemical mortar men in WW2, you can just hear them saying, Jeez Chuck is right this thing is one heavy bastard.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 3, 2017 14:41:36 GMT
The picture was taken in Italy, as denoted by the 5th Army shoulder sleeve insignia.
I tried to pin down the unit, but there were seven or eight Chemical Mortar Battalions that served in Italy over the course of the war, including a couple that were activated there using the manpower assets of some anti-aircraft battalions. Short answer no luck.
That appears to be a cart used to carry ammo. It is probably either captured or locally acquired. U S units used a lot of captured and acquired equipment in Italy especially. The ruggedness of the terrain, really cut down the usefulness of our own gear in many places. People from the WWII Tenth Mountain Division said they tried to get their hands on as much Alpini gear as they could find.
The Four Deuce was a great weapon. No battalion should ever leave home without four, preferably six.
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Post by yanmacca on Mar 3, 2017 15:32:21 GMT
Chuck this is a great source for US Chemical Mortar Battalions, I used it a lot while compiling data on the in for my site; link
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Post by quincannon on Mar 3, 2017 15:37:47 GMT
Alongside the book Benteen recommended, I would suggest you add two others to your must read list. "Dereliction of Duty" by Lieutenant General H. R. McMaster,USA, and "Breaking The Phalanx" by Colonel (Ret) Douglas McGregor, USA.
Both of these books examine how the U S Army looks at war, one in terms of the responsibilities placed on the leadership. The second examines how same old same old is never good enough. In other words we must never approach the next thinking it will be like the last. It advocates new organizational constructs, that are radical alterations of how things were done in the past.
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Post by yanmacca on Mar 3, 2017 15:39:55 GMT
Chuck, the men were from the 2nd Chemical Mortar Battalion, here is some more info on the picture; linkIt even shows a 4.2in on its traveling cart, but unlike the others it was dismantled for traveling.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 3, 2017 16:04:56 GMT
That mortar Ian is the WWII model and I think it was designated the M2. The one Colt and I referred to was the M30 which is about twice as big. I would doubt if the M30 could be carried on anything less than the 3/4 ton truck we used.
The 2nd Chemical Mortar Battalion came from Edgewood Arsenal, Maryland and until 1944 it was known as the 2nd Chemical Battalion. The designation was changed to more accurately reflect the role it played. That battalion was definitely one of the most well traveled. It was in North Africa (late - no combat), Sicily, Italy, France, and Germany.
My opinion of these battalions, my opinion only, is that they were a gross waste of manpower. A battalion organization to support this weapon probably misemployed two hundred or more people. When you organize a battalion structure around a weapon system it should be that the weapons system MUST be supported by that type structure. In the instance of the four deuce, it would be far better in terms of manpower and equipment savings to form no higher organization than company, then integrate that company into the organization(s) they are most likely to support. In the case of the four deuce, that should have been as part of the Infantry Regiment.
The U S Army has had a tendency in the past to do this type thing, organize new units for the introduction of new equipment. We saw it in World War I with machine gun battalions, and in WWII with tank destroyers and chemical mortar battalions. None of these organizations survive very long in the force structure.
Once we find out we have screwed the organizational pooch, we tend to push weapons downward to where they can be best utilized. The machine gun for instance was pushed down from the battalion of WWI to the company of WWII, and then to the platoon in or following Korea. Same with the four deuce, from separate battalion to company at regimental level, to battalion during my time, and now to company level headquarters platoons in our heavy units.
For about thirty years or more there was one four deuce in each cavalry platoon, along with two scout sections, a tank section (three tanks), and an Infantry rifle squad. It was a true combined arms organization down to platoon level, and an absolute bear to command and control. It did the job though.
Of course it usually takes fifty years to do so, but it does get done.
The M30 by the way is no longer in use and it has been replaced by the 120mm, The four deuce was actually a 107mm, but it was always called the four deuce, regardless of what the Army wanted soldiers to call it in its later days of service.
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Post by yanmacca on Mar 3, 2017 16:07:11 GMT
Going back to Pork Chop and King Company commanded by Lt. Clemons, now in WW2 a US infantry company had paper strength of 193 all ranks, and as you know these were split between three rifle and one weapons platoons, plus a CHQ of course, now K Coy (minus its Wpns Plt which stayed behind in a support capacity) went into the assault with 135 all ranks.
So if we take away the 35 men who made up the Wpns Plt, that would mean that K Company went into that battle 23 men short and one of those would be the Captain of the company.
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Post by yanmacca on Mar 3, 2017 16:10:52 GMT
Here is the M30 used in Korea, I never used the data from this site because it was all written in imperial weights and measures and as you know, we are all metric these days; link
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Post by yanmacca on Mar 3, 2017 16:22:56 GMT
I think it was a good idea to replace the cannon company with 4.2in mortars, at the start of WW2 many countries had these type of units at regimental level, they usually contained what was known as battalion or regimental guns and were normally 75mm weapons, but as the war went on these artillery pieces were replaced by heavy mortars.
But you know me Chuck, and what I would have done is have a heavy company which in the case of the US Army, would contain four 4.2in and four 75mm pack guns, that would give you indirect and direct fire support, the pack guns also fired a hollow charge round which could knock out a tank.
As I mentioned the other day, the British kept hold of their machine gun battalion’s right through WW2 and they were kept at divisional level, so I hoped they had the common sense to split this battalion up and issue two MMGs to each infantry company, because a standard infantry battalion had only Bren guns.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 3, 2017 16:34:02 GMT
Company K was not short a captain. The man who filled the position was a First Lieutenant (Clemmons). As I said before that is not unusual. In combat it is often found where first and Second Lieutenants command companies. The TO&E specifies the rank that should command. Reality decides who does command.
You show me a rifle company that is not short, and I will show you a rifle company that is not, nor has been in combat.
It was not uncommon to have two hundred fifty people assigned to rifle companies in Korea. Sixty or seventy of those might, and probably were KATUSA's, Koreans who were pulled off the streets, given a uniform, and a weapon, no training and given to US units. They were mainly employed as laborers, hauling ammo, digging trenches, etc. After the war, a lot of these Koreans were incorporated into the ROK Army, and the on the job experience they gained with U S forces proved invaluable.
In the book "This Kind of War" another must read classic, the Commander of Company G, 9th Infantry, Frank Munoz, goes into this KATUSA thing in some detail.
Company K, as depicted in the film was about average for that period.
The same went on in Vietnam. A friend of mine from basic course days, who had receive a battlefield commission while with the 1st ID, was given his first platoon consisting of twelve men.
The moral of the story is throw the goddamned TO&E away. Things in combat are never as the TO&E says they are NEVER, and that is an absolute.
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