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Post by yanmacca on Jun 12, 2018 19:00:57 GMT
Steve, did you post this image? If so where was it from.
If you look at where the author says that Martini was sent back [red circle], then it would be around here and right on that route where the army finds are on the Bonifide map..
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Jun 12, 2018 19:33:24 GMT
Great catch Ian, Chuck should be pleased he brought it up. Also if you look at your 1st grab of the Bonafede map the possible "W" skirmish line is down hill from Luce and my guess is they are firing west, and that is all it is. Why you might ask, look on Luce proper there is a tight cluster of fired rounds probably fired while still mounted and maybe moving. The skirmish line was thrown out towards the threat.
Regards, Tom
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 12, 2018 19:47:28 GMT
Hi Tom, Thanks again.
It does look a lot like the column could have fired from horse back, not sure if they were any good at this but it may have been more for effect then trying to kill someone.
You can trace a trail from that W to N/C ridge and onto battle ridge. I don't think that we are wrong by suggesting that MTC was empty of hostiles at that point, Wolftooth even places an arrow on his map stating that Indians where in the coulee.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 12, 2018 21:21:57 GMT
A NOTE TO BENTEEN --------- IAN PLEASE STAND BY WITH YOUR MAPS AS THIS PROGRESSES ----------MAC STAND BY WITH YOUR RED HAWK TESTIMONY
Dan Please outline your theory discussed here before in as great a detail as you can.
For the purpose of your discussion lay down, make the assumption that Custer's route was over Sharpshooter Ridge,across Medicine Tail Coulee at its most narrow point in the south, then following the axis - East Ridge - Luce Ridge - Nye/Blummer/Cartwright Ridge - Calhoun Hill - Battle Ridge - Cemetery Ridge.
Make the assumption that Indians are emerging across Medicine Tail Coulee Ford and (in more limited numbers) across the tops of the bluffs between Reno Hill and MTC Ford.
Tom nor I have Dan's phone number. If anyone does please call him and direct him toward this post as soon as possible.
For everyone else that elongated W means something, and there is a high probability that it means that the W indicates that troops were firing westward. The density of the field of artifacts represented by the W indicates a skirmish position of some duration. Subsequent artifact fields extending northward, particularly on Nye/Cartright tell us that at some point this skirmish was continued as the column continued northward
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Jun 12, 2018 22:24:20 GMT
I am at work but just a quick note before leaving this in your safe hands. The terrain is everything...why is the line a W? Terrain might be the factor. Contours are drawn on...accurate?? Are we sure they must be firing west? Just saying ...open minds. I think we would need to be "on the ground " here to be sure .
Exciting isn't it?!
Keep up the excellent work!
Cheers
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Post by quincannon on Jun 12, 2018 23:35:51 GMT
They were either firing westward, as the elongated W is on the west side of the ridge, or they were firing up hill at very short ranges to a target that must be on the top of the ridge. The latter is not out of the parameters of possibility, and you are correct it should be verified on the ground. Maybe when Steve is up there.
That is why I have asked for Dan's scenario,in as much detail as possible.
I think there may be a possibility that the scenario we have all worked on is completely correct, only completely correct in reverse. Tom and I piddled with it this afternoon on the phone, and it would seem to fit within the gross parameters of that scenario only as viewed in a mirror.
That is why what Dan has presented is so important at this juncture. If we can marry Red Hawk up with Dan's stuff, and making an assumption that the artifacts on LSH, CR, and down near the ford (D) are the leavings of people trying, but failing, to get away, by heading north, I think it might fit.
I have been on these boards for I don't know how many years now, and in one of the first posts I made was that it looked to me that Company C on F-F Ridge appeared to be a rear guard action. I think I might also have an answer for why Company L's first position was in the low ground. What if it was not the initial position, but rather the second or third, and those initial positions were on L-N-C?
Look at the topmost of the two maps Ian posted at the top of this page. Pay attention to the two routes attributed to Custer indicated by the dashed lines. The red circle is not important at this juncture. It will be later.
Yes, it is exciting. I haven't been this excited since the dog took a crap on my loafers.
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Jun 13, 2018 1:47:57 GMT
Looking to the lower left of the Bonefedes map there is a small circle representing a knob on the ridge. Behind it are some red dots (warrior position?) and a group of blue dots (cavalry position). The red dots group appears again twice along the ridge moving to a point where they again coincide with blue dots west of the NC ridge. I fancy this reflects a group of warriors , some of Wolftooth’s mates, harassing Custer and being chased off along this line. The W firing may in part relate to this but equally could be in response to warriors on the crest of the ridge above the cavalry to the east. Trace the parabolas of the arms of the W and they would concentrate fire towards that crest onto a small group above them. East of that crest is a row of dots on the east of the ridge. I feel they are “seeing off” the warriors who were on that crest. So two small groups of warriors harassing Custer from concealed positions and being run off. They then have another go at it from east of NC generating the denser field of fire from further on along NC. Thoughts? Cheers
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Jun 13, 2018 3:17:31 GMT
Coming off the right end of the W is a line down the coulee oriented to fire towards the position of the red dots behind the small contour circle. I would guess that this was the first firing towards that group of warriors. Cavalry then moved to near the red dot position as that group of warriors retired to the second red dot position. This cavalry group then fired at the second red dot position and the warriors retired below the margin of the coulee next to NC ridge. Following fire and movement then forced the warriors to retreat.
Following this the W was formed to address a warrior appearance on the top of the ridge and again fire and movement made the warriors retreat. Sounds like Wolftooth to me.
That line off the W down the drainage would seem to be an idea for the Custer route.
Cheers
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 13, 2018 14:16:27 GMT
I think we are not seeing a whole column halting and opening fire, but the column on the move with only certain companies opening fire. The blue line of finds which stretch right through the blue W on Luce ridge and right across Nye-Cartwright ridge show a travel corridor rather than a defensive line with cartridges being ejected as they progressed.
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 13, 2018 14:36:26 GMT
I have taken the liberty of posting these two images, the first is a view showing the finds in line from the west, the other are those other positions show Indian and Cavalry positions. I have also added the few finds on the top of Luce itself.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 13, 2018 17:29:11 GMT
There is no doubt that the evidence finds indicated at least two separate episodes of skirmishing took place, the first on Luce, and the second on Blummer/Nye/Cartwright. For Luce, Nye, and Cartwright, each discovery was primarily linear, and the cartridges discovered generally in groups of three. The grouping of three cartridges would indicate a stationary, and most probably a dismounted action. A dismounted action is most consistent with the dragoon technique of dismounting to bring the most lethal weapons system into action. Each of these men, all four, also indicate smaller finds that could indicate mounted firing.
In other words this was not like the cavalry version of outlaws chasing Roy and Gene in a running gun battle, but rather a more deliberate move, dismount, chase away, mount, and repeat the process as many times as necessary, very much like a tank battle before the advent of stabilized gunnery systems that allowed firing on the move
Luce is responsible for the elongated W, at least for finding it. Some others may have found more evidence after Luce first reported in in 1944. Luce also says that more evidence was found that indicated the soldiers had chased away Indians from the top of Luce Ridge, over to the east side of the ridge.
The artifacts on Blummer/Nye/Cartwright are on the eastern slope of that ridge, which would indicate eastward firing. There are also small pockets of Indian cartridge artifacts to the west side of B/N/C that probably indicate harassing fire.
Looking at the total of what has been discussed over these last two days, I do not believe there is anything that is so new and wonderful that would lead anyone toward anything that would refute the five company north theory.
That said I am still troubled by the decision making process that allowed them to continue northward, when the presence of Indians, even a few, in Medicine Tail Coulee. A few now, could be expected to be quite a bit more than a few five minutes from now. If I, and presumably others can figure that out from a map, then surely Custer, on the scene, could do just as well as we can. Indians behind you, even in small numbers means that you are cut off already, and that you are well and truly Bar B Q.
The more I see of this the more I am struck by how similar Indian tactical procedure was to NKPA, and CCF tactics in Korea. Once they knew where you were they would infiltrate people behind you. At first just a few to create road blocks at choke points, then they would quickly reinforce these blocks. You might still be able to get through them, but it would be at the cost of time, and people, lots of both, neither of which you can recover.
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benteen
First Lieutenant
"Once An Eagle
Posts: 406
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Post by benteen on Jun 13, 2018 18:35:15 GMT
Forum members,
My apology to you Chuck and everyone for taking so long to reply. The truth is I have not been following this thread as I have no ability to read a map and more important the TOPO information that it gives . However, I will look at the maps that Ian and others have posted, together with what Red Hawk said (Mac if you will post that for me) and try to give you as honest and complete an answer as I can.
Be Well Dan
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Post by quincannon on Jun 13, 2018 19:25:45 GMT
Good, no apology necessary.
What I am interested in is the dropping off of companies in your scenario in sequence, as Custer moved northward. It may very well fit if there was some provable threat to the rear. In other words dropping them off as an expedient, with the intention of carrying on northward as soon as the threat was removed.
I invite you to look at the first map Ian posted at the top of this page, where the dashed lines indicate a splitting of forces, one that continues on past Calhoun Hill and down battle ridge, and the other that crosses Deep Coulee further west, in what appears to me to be in the area of F-F Ridge. If such were the case we may be seeing two companies being deployed as a rear guard at about the same time.
I would like first the scenario you have put up on this site a couple of times, and then looking at what I have written in the above paragraph how would two parallel routes from the split indicated on Ian's map influence or change those views.
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 13, 2018 19:39:42 GMT
Chuck, if you know which post of Dan's you need to see again, then if you click his name, a highlighted line will show in his data page, asking you if you want to see all the posts by Dan [View this members recent posts], they are all in dated order, so as Dan doesn't post very often, you will see all the ones he has posted in the last couple of weeks without even looking very far.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 13, 2018 21:07:41 GMT
I remember what Dan has written Ian. In fact I remember seeing it several times over the course of as many years. Each time he added more detail. and that is why I want a fresh version of it.
Dan is alone in his theories. Unlike the self appointed experts, that should know better, Dan's version while keeping C, I and L behind does it at the same time he is acknowledging that the intention was to go north and attack with five. He has none of that - waiting for Benteen - stay here while I reconnoiter - looking for a better defensive position - attacking with two - pussyfooting nonsense we see so often from the people that drink the hundred forty two year old glass of Kool Aid. In short our Corporal has not forgotten the Principle of MASS, unlike the Captains, Pretend Captains, and Lieutenant Colonels, who have completely neglected it.
Frankly I am not sure if I can ever buy Dan's version, but it is a hell of a lot better than most, and it is so good that it serves as a bench mark against which the five company north scenario can be tested to the limits.
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