azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
Posts: 1,824
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Post by azranger on Jan 16, 2017 12:03:25 GMT
Ian
There is an old two-track road that reaches Reno Hill at the Benteen location. It is impressive to be at the bottom looking up. You can see the red Indian markers.
i think the old roads followed contours that would be easy routes for horses. The Cheyennes come in from that direction mounted.
My friend, Chip, suggested they move the entrance to that end and then the route would follow the battle flow.
Regards
Steve
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Post by quincannon on Jan 16, 2017 12:06:29 GMT
Ian:
Ask yourself this question, given Custer goes to the edge of the bluffs to get a view of the village, leaving the rest of his column to the east and moving generally northeastward, who would you playing the role of Custer take with you, if the party was limited to containing two plus yourself. I believe the answer, and also my answer is that the other two people you would take with you are the two you trust to give you the best guidance and advice based upon their observations of what all three of you are seeing. That in my mind would preclude taking a fresh off the boat immigrant whose command of the English language is limited, whose military experience is limited to nonexistent, and whose only real attribute is confined to blowing a horn.
You should push this to the limit, and personally I believe you are very much on the right track concerning a route for the main column being much further east from the bluffs that is generally assumed.
The only thing I want to make perfectly clear here, is the fact that if Custer went to the edge of those bluffs in person, or if he sent someone(s) there in his stead, that the reason probably was not to just check on Reno. He had given Reno his orders. he expected him to carry out those orders to the best of his ability to do so. At that point Custer's main concern, the focus of his efforts would be on determining the size and northern extent of that village, so he could press his attack at the most optimal place. In this effort it is not necessary to determine who did what. It is necessary to conclude if somebody did something. If we make this latter conclusion into fact that indeed someone did something, the who does not matter. The fact that it was done matters.
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Post by yanmacca on Jan 16, 2017 12:47:49 GMT
Here is an over view of the area in question and it shows a couple of tracks. Track A goes right over to the east, which may rule it out as an approach route by Custer. Track B leads right back to the area around Ford A and looks a likely candidate for Custer to travel. Like you said Steve, these tracks were placed on the old routes used by animals and people for years and if they offer a direct route which also allowed for concealment, then any military commander worth his salt would use them.
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Post by yanmacca on Jan 16, 2017 12:56:34 GMT
Yes Chuck, the fact that Reno was moving through the valley and fully versed with orders would give Custer no real concern at that point. Custer had his own attack to plan and as you said, he would be more concerned with seeing his objective and not riding blind.
The only reason he would be concerned about Reno, would be if he received word that he had stalled or was being defeated, but up to then Custer would be thinking that everything would be going to plan and once he saw the village and worked out a route, then this would be paramount in his mind.
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Post by quincannon on Jan 16, 2017 13:49:02 GMT
That's the way I see it.
The only thing we know is that Custer received word that the Indians were coming out to meet Reno. So much the better. They were probably forming a screen, and Reno would be attracting their attention. That would be what was expected. if Custer or someone had a look from the bluffs, the thing on their minds would be the objective, and how best to get to it at a place of advantage.
When you think about it Custer viewing Reno in trouble feeds into two types of people with agendas
Type 1 - Custer is an uncaring idiot who has sacrificed Reno to further his own ends. therefore he wins honors as moronic homicidal maniac of the month.
Type 2 - Custer raced to Ford B to support Reno and was repulsed bringing the bulk of Indian response toward him, and he gets the snitzel, because Reno and Benteen did not go to his immediate aid.
Take away that Reno is in deep shit look see, and both of those types mentioned above are sucking serious canal water.
If he saw something, or someone he sent saw something, we must then assume that it was not Reno in a world of hurt, because Custer continued the mission to the north, and I believe we have raised serious questions as to if he ever went to Ford B. There is no evidence, save that manufactured by Camp and a few others for it, and there is plenty of evidence that he went directly to D with all he had. The route he took there requires serious analysis, but not the destination.
The most direct route to Ford B is getting into Cedar Coulee or the one a little further north that Steve mentioned turning left into Medicine Tail and straight to that Ford. If he saw Reno in trouble, and I mean bad trouble he would either go directly to B as fast as he could, or backtrack off of those bluffs to either attempt to relieve Reno or form a base upon which Reno could fall back to. That is what real people in my former profession would do, and I have no reason to think Custer would do otherwise.
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Post by Beth on Jan 16, 2017 20:27:14 GMT
Ian: Ask yourself this question, given Custer goes to the edge of the bluffs to get a view of the village, leaving the rest of his column to the east and moving generally northeastward, who would you playing the role of Custer take with you, if the party was limited to containing two plus yourself. I believe the answer, and also my answer is that the other two people you would take with you are the two you trust to give you the best guidance and advice based upon their observations of what all three of you are seeing. That in my mind would preclude taking a fresh off the boat immigrant whose command of the English language is limited, whose military experience is limited to nonexistent, and whose only real attribute is confined to blowing a horn. Okay, this might be a dense brain day for me but I agree that if Custer took two other people to the edge of the bluff, Martini would probably not be one. I can see him taking Tom but who else? Cooke? I wonder if Tom would be the best choice though and if he might tell Tom to lead the regiment on and he (GAC) will catch up. Who should Custer have taken to the bluff edge and who would he have must likely taken? Steve, does that two track road you mention possibly follow the most likely route that Custer would have taken once he started to head up the the bluffs? I tend to believe Custer would have taken a route that would be easy on his horses, why waste their (the horses) energy making a steep climb, if there was an easier one available. I suspect that a horse's energy was a resource that was managed, so you had it when you needed it.
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Post by quincannon on Jan 16, 2017 23:16:59 GMT
Whom he would take would be up to him.
If it were me, I would take Cooke and Sharrow.
I can envision Company C being the lead company or if not the company nearest Custer when he departed. I can see him telling Tom where he was going, and Tom in turn going back to Kanipe and telling him to get back to the packs and hurry them along.
I can also see the reverse of that. Custer coming back, telling Tom what he saw. Tom then turns to Kanipe and so forth, all this while the note is being composed and sent off to Benteen. Keep in mind here that Kanipe said he was sent back to the packs and ran into Benteen by accident. Martini was dispatched to find Benteen (period).
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Post by Beth on Jan 17, 2017 0:20:41 GMT
Whom he would take would be up to him. If it were me, I would take Cooke and Sharrow. I can envision Company C being the lead company or if not the company nearest Custer when he departed. I can see him telling Tom where he was going, and Tom in turn going back to Kanipe and telling him to get back to the packs and hurry them along. I can also see the reverse of that. Custer coming back, telling Tom what he saw. Tom then turns to Kanipe and so forth, all this while the note is being composed and sent off to Benteen. Keep in mind here that Kanipe said he was sent back to the packs and ran into Benteen by accident. Martini was dispatched to find Benteen (period). Why only one messenger? What if he needed to send messages to both Benteen and Reno? I know this calls for speculation but if the rest of the regiment was moving on north, Custer would lose time sending for another messenger. The 'reports' say there were three people on the HPOTB but is it conceivable that at least a small detail was near at hand holding their horses but their presence wasn't needed at the overlook--after all the bigger the party up there, the more they would stand out. I think that people forget that the Kanipe/Benteen meeting would have been accidental.
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Post by dgfred on Jan 17, 2017 1:42:18 GMT
Ian: Ask yourself this question, given Custer goes to the edge of the bluffs to get a view of the village, leaving the rest of his column to the east and moving generally northeastward, who would you playing the role of Custer take with you, if the party was limited to containing two plus yourself. I believe the answer, and also my answer is that the other two people you would take with you are the two you trust to give you the best guidance and advice based upon their observations of what all three of you are seeing. That in my mind would preclude taking a fresh off the boat immigrant whose command of the English language is limited, whose military experience is limited to nonexistent, and whose only real attribute is confined to blowing a horn. Okay, this might be a dense brain day for me but I agree that if Custer took two other people to the edge of the bluff, Martini would probably not be one. I can see him taking Tom but who else? Cooke? I wonder if Tom would be the best choice though and if he might tell Tom to lead the regiment on and he (GAC) will catch up. Who should Custer have taken to the bluff edge and who would he have must likely taken? Steve, does that two track road you mention possibly follow the most likely route that Custer would have taken once he started to head up the the bluffs? I tend to believe Custer would have taken a route that would be easy on his horses, why waste their (the horses) energy making a steep climb, if there was an easier one available. I suspect that a horse's energy was a resource that was managed, so you had it when you needed it. *** 1st post... take it easy on me. 'easy on his horses' - Hey Beth... this is one of my (many) interest in the battle. Old 'Iron Butt' didn't care too much about the men or the horses it seems. If I remember right I will just go thru the previous few days for the men/horses. June 23- left camp about 4:30am and pack train pulled into camp about sunset. Maybe like 33+ miles. June 24- 5am to 7:45 on march. Maybe like 28+ miles. Up around 1am for another 8+ miles and then to bed. June 25- Left about 8am so maybe like 4 hours sleep or so. To Crow's nest area is like 14+ miles. From there it is about 20 miles or so to the Custer Monument. So maybe like at least 30 miles that day with little sleep... ending with Indians swarming around your disjointed units. Yikes. So many 21 yr olds... can you imagine how tired and terrified both the men and the horses must have been? Anyway, really enjoy the conversation/debate/discussion here. Thanks for all the interesting information/knowledge.
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Post by quincannon on Jan 17, 2017 1:48:24 GMT
All of this is speculation. Something like this probably happened.
Something like sending Kanipe off to find the packs most likely did happen. The man carries the brand of coward because of it. It is unproven and until it is proven it is an unfair accusation leveled at a man caught up in circumstances not of his making. Those accusations cannot be proven, so I wish those that engage in this would shut the goddamned mouths and crawl back into their sewer. A persons opinion in 2017 does not constitute proof of anything that occurred in 1876.
The bottom line is Kanipe being sent to the packs, and Martini being sent to find Benteen is both logical and believable.
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Post by dgfred on Jan 17, 2017 2:03:01 GMT
Whomever was sent up there... would they know by the size of the village the probability of Reno's attack at least having big trouble? Even if they didn't see the entire village at that point.
I mean... hit 1,000+ (maybe up to 1,500+ estimated before) 'hostiles' with about 100 men in the nose then expect to knock them out with a right cross with 200 more?
This is the point where something terrible happened either with Custer's mind or interpretation of the scouts (whomever was up there). In my opinion that is.
If he has any idea of the size of the village... he needs to get his force reformed asap... again, in my opinion.
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Post by quincannon on Jan 17, 2017 3:02:34 GMT
If what you say is true, all battles would be bloodless affairs. Both sides would line up and take a headcount and the decision would go to the larger number.
Lee beat the snot out of Burnside outnumbered 2 to 1. Lee beat the snot out of Pope outnumbered nearly 3 to 1.
It is not how many you have it is what you do with them that counts.
Fortune favors the bold, but when you are Bold you had better have Bold's shit together, or you will be Dead Bold.
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Post by yanmacca on Jan 17, 2017 12:07:11 GMT
Not very well up on military protocol, but by the sounds of it the column continued its course to reach the ridge lines and Custer detached himself to roam at will. Either Martini or Kanipe eluded to this when they said that Custer was on a hill as the column rode by and he waved his hat to urge them along.
So if Custer and say the Regimental Sergeant plus an orderly detached themselves from the HQ, then wouldn’t Cook command the HQ group?
I would guess that the three Captains in the shape of Tom Custer, Yates and Keogh would be commanding their respected companies, but I don’t know just how much clout the regimental adjutant had, especially with him being a lieutenant, but he would be up to date with what Custer was up to.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Jan 17, 2017 12:27:26 GMT
Ian,
He was a long time Lt., the chosen one. He may or not have been a yes man. My guess a decent admin. and sounding board. I have been known to pick on some of the officers corps, of this unit. Cooke was probably a good functionary and a brave man.
Regards, Tom
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Post by yanmacca on Jan 17, 2017 12:43:39 GMT
I agree Tom, I wonder if other officers look on long serving adjutants as the back bone of the regiment, similar to how officers look on first sergeants or RSMs.
Reading a bit about him, and you do get the impression that he wouldn’t suffer fools gladly and probably did a lot of work behind the scenes to make the regiment run smoothly.
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