azranger
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Post by azranger on Jan 15, 2017 17:07:14 GMT
I thought so Steve, so where did the incident take place were the column spotted the village and the horses got excited, someone lived to report that incident and what Custer said at that time, so they must have been on an location which allowed the whole column to view the valley and not just a few riders, that’s why I said that it could be SSR. There is at least one location around Reno Hill where you can see the valley and another before reaching Reno. My best guess it has to be before Thompson goes on foot. Unless he is describing what someone else told him. Before climbing up to Reno would mean that when Thompson was on foot and falling behind caused him to not see the direction Custer went. He followed the Indian trail toward the Big Village.
That is what supports the movement (Donahue discovery) down Cedar Coulee and crossing west just below it in play for me. As soon as they cross over at the loaf on Weir they are out of sight. If you top out on foot you can see down Cedar and SSR for quite a distance.
I think we need to know exactly where the observations from the ground were made. I think the view of the valley by Custer's troopers is not the same location as the viewing from the ground near the skirmish line.
Regards
Steve
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dave
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Post by dave on Jan 15, 2017 17:37:52 GMT
QC During the process of the US Government acquiring the public lands to enlarge Fort A.P. Hill, did they take in the ole Richard Garrett property? I have never made it to that site during my brief travels around battlefields in Virginia and was curious if the property was Federal land and unavailable to the public? Regards Dave
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Jan 15, 2017 17:50:30 GMT
Thompson
"We now left the valley in which had been traveling and commenced to climb to the bluffs overlooking the river and surrounding country."... "When we reached the top of the hill, we were ordered to form in sets of four."
"By this time the companies had disappeared over the crest of the hill. I was still tugging away at the spurs, when Watson came up and asked what the trouble was and then passed on in the trail of the soldiers. I mounted my horse again but found that a staggering walk was all I could get out of him.
The following seems impossible to see from SRR "I then looked across the river at the Indian Village, it was all in commotion. One party was dashing down the river [north] ; others were rushing toward the upper end of the village. The cause of this commotion was Major Reno with three companies of men about a mile distant from the upper [south] end of the village, dashing along in a gallop towards them."
I believe that they also discovered after the battle that Custer's 5 companies had ridden to the bluffs adjacent Reno Hill.
So from that point (next to Reno Hill) all three routes lead to MTC. Donahue, Cedar and SSR To ride down SSR you have ride on top of it. Which makes you highly visible and I would think Thompson would see the 5 companies. If you use Donahue's route then the 5 companies disappear at Weir and it puts Custer a lot closer to where Thompson stated he saw him. A hand drawn map is Donahue's source I believe and it did not come from Thompson.
Regards
Steve
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Jan 15, 2017 18:52:07 GMT
I found this article when looking for pictures from SSR. It's an interesting read with great pictures. It also includes this information "Trumpeter John Martin said that after climbing to the base of the ridge, they stopped and looked out over the valley and that location was about 300 yards from the Reno-Benteen defense site. The Crow scouts would later say that the location was near the Lt. Benny Hodgson marker. The Hodgson marker has since been relocated below the bluffs and near the river, but at the time the Crow shared their accounts it was just below us near the pullout where our tour bus was parked. From where we stood, on the south end of the ridge, Custer could see about two thirds of the village. The Cheyenne camp, at the downstream end, would have been obscured by Weir Point." I see bc, Gerry and myself in one of the pictures. With a range finder it is over 600 yards from the closest point on SRR to Reno/Benteen. From the top where we were standing is even further.
These three routes don't effect timing but SSR would make Thompson and Martin accounts less likely. Cedar and west just past Weir are consistent with thier accounts.
Regards
Steve
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Post by quincannon on Jan 15, 2017 18:52:23 GMT
Dave the approximate coordinates of the Garrett farm is UT063257 on the 1:50,000 scale Special Map of Fort A. P. Hill. The Special map is made "special" as it is a reprint of the regular 1?50,000 scale Army Map Service sheets of that area. The difference is that the "special" map shows training area boundaries, camp site locations, ranges, observation towers and the like.
I visited the site in 1963, I think it was, and at that time you could see the foundations of some of the buildings. Nothing else was left standing. It was then just inside the boundary of what was then Camp A. P. Hill. US301 was then a two lane road that passed through the middle of the reservation from Port Royal on the Rappahannock to Bowling Green, then on toward Richmond.
Since the US301 has been widened to four lanes through this area and what little is left of the farm is in the median between the north and southbound lanes. The median is wooded, and I understand there may be a few stones about, along with a marker in the southbound lane. I think you can pull over there, but it is a might dangerous.
To give you a picture of the location in is on a hilltop nearly a mile due south of the intersection of US 17 and US 301 in Port Royal.
My opinion is that it is not worth going even two seconds out of your way to see, just to say you have been there. By the post card with the picture of the house on it in Port Royal, and call it a day.
There is much more in that same area, and on that map that would be of more interest to you, Hamilton's Crossing and Guinea Station, both along the railroad, and a wonderfully preserved by nature set of entrenchments in Training Areas 10 and 11, which was Jackson's defensive line in the winter of 62-63, after Fredericksburg. His camp sites were immediately behind (to the south), and west. There is also a farm on the south side of 17 near Moss Neck and Garrett's store that was his headquarters during that period. Liberty Church on the road from the Heth Camp Site (The old town of Mica) to Lake Travis still stands from those says, and it is said that most of the notable Confederates including Stuart attended services there from time to time.
Fort A. P. Hill was never expanded. It did not exist before 1941. It was all private land, all rural except for Mica, and a few scattered crossroad two or three house villages. The whole area was acquired by the government as a maneuver area for Fort George G. Meade, Maryland. The first troops to occupy it were from the 29th Infantry Division. Most of the people that lived there were given jobs building the place, and whatever civilian positions there were to run and administer the post. Many of their family members still work there, and in my day I knew a few of them that were born in Mica and some of the farms that became the post. It is a huge place, and it has recently been further built up as a training area for the Global War on Terrorism. From what I hear they have some really neat stuff added recently. It has long been used by Special Operations forces to train, and again in my day there were places on the east side of 301 that were restricted entry even if you were in the Army. Up near Mica, there is a large drop zone that was used for testing and evaluation of equipment, another area that was completely off limits. Fort A. P. Hill has some secrets that just are not openly discussed. I tell you this because while many of the places I listed are within the reservation, I have absolutely no idea how hard it would be today to gain access to them.
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Post by yanmacca on Jan 15, 2017 20:12:37 GMT
I think the Crow's assumed that Custer went down MTC, because I don't think they would hang about on Bouyers bluff if they knew for certain that the battle was going to kick off there.
Plus reading between the lines, he said the last time I saw Custer, which to me sounds like a face to face meeting and not a column from a distance.
I tend to agree with AZ because Custer may have moved down the upper end of MTC before they moved up to Luce ridge, so I would guess that the Crows rode down from Weir point, and then met Custer for the last time at the confluence of MTC/Cedar.
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Post by quincannon on Jan 15, 2017 21:22:20 GMT
If you go down Medicine Tail Coulee you go right by Bouyer's Bluff.
If you go down Cedar Coulee, across Medicine Tail Coulee then up onto L-N-C, that is a different story.
I also disagree with Steve about crossing over Sharpshooter Ridge. If you cross over on the extreme western side of that ridge, you can be seen from the valley. The further east you cross over I do believe you angle of sight is cut off by the bluffs along the river. Now if you were out in the middle of the valley you would probably be seen, say somewhere around where the horse herd was, but if you were in tight around the river I do not believe they could be seen.
Whatever way you cut this Custer has got to be on L-N-C by some means. If you cannot account, by the tales told for that fact, then you must look at the tales themselves and decide on their voracity,
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Post by chardvc on Jan 15, 2017 21:39:23 GMT
The whole problem with virtually all the testimony is not so much about what is included in that testimony but the fact that it's more about the audience for whom the testimony is made. I struggle to believe that virtually anyone can remember exactly what happened 2 months ago let alone 30-40-50 years after the event (these days i struggle with 2 hours!!). Maybe it's just me, maybe senses are heightened by the drama of the unfolding events. Where does that leave anyone? I have no idea. Just perhaps that it's all about weight of interpretation. I don't think we can dismiss anyone but likewise we shouldn't be believing, without questioning, everything any one person says!!
Sorry, gone off on one!
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dave
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Post by dave on Jan 15, 2017 23:23:30 GMT
QC Thank you so much for the information about Fort A.P. Hill as I have never been there but hope to one day soon on my next visit to my sister who lives north of DC. Last time there was 2002 so hope to go there via Appomattox, Dinwiddie Court House, Petersburg, Richmond, Fredricksburg and Quantico.
I have been reading and studying about an obscure aspect of the Gettysburg Battle which took place on July 2 on the southern flank of Meade's army. The Confederate charge through the Peach Orchard by Barksdale's Brigade might well have been the "High Water Mark" instead of Pickett's men at the Angle on July 3rd. I knew little about Barksdale so I decided to read more about him and this aspect of Longstreet's Corps attack. I run on and I apologize for misdirecting the thread. Regards Dave
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Post by quincannon on Jan 16, 2017 0:01:32 GMT
When you go to Fredericksburg Dave, I will put you in touch with Granddaughter Number One, a history major at Mary Washington College. She told me at Christmas she spends many of her weekends roaming the battlefield. Barksdale's Mississippi Brigade is the one that held the shore line across the Rappahannock during the battle, that we discussed a week or so ago.
CVC: Unfortunately you are correct. Most of those guys were only at LBH once, and behold a battle was underway. While certain aspects of combat are etched into your brain, human nature being what it is tunes out things that don't seem all that important at the time, and when it comes time to be questioned on the details memory mostly fails. There is also what I call "close creep". As time goes on in events like these, having heard stories over time from various sources regarding the action in question, the individual has a tendency to become closer in his mind to the spear point of the event. I do not believe most of them even know they are doing it, retelling a story they heard as opposed to participating in the event. Sometimes we find out that the guy who says he picked off Chief Thunderthud on the run at 150 meters with his carbine firing one handed was actually shoveling shit in doctor Porter's aid station. Sometimes we don't. It is all very real to them though.
It is said:
That if every member of the Texas Brigade that held Lee's horse in the Wilderness, and shouted General Lee to the rear, had actually been with the Texas Brigade in the Wilderness holding that goddamned horse, Confederate money would still have value.
If everyone who said they were on the Antietam with Lee were actually at Sharpsburg (which is what Confederate soldiers who were there called the battle) with Lee, then the Stars and Bars would yet fly over Dixie.
If every GI who claimed to be standing next to Norm Cota on Omaha Beach when he said to Max Schneider - "Rangers Lead The Way - was where they said they were, Hitler would have surrendered on 7 June 1944.
And the world wonders why I believe nothing until it is proven to me by the preponderance of available evidence.
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dave
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Post by dave on Jan 16, 2017 0:23:08 GMT
QC Thank you for the kind offer which I hope take one day soon. Regards Dave
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Post by Beth on Jan 16, 2017 4:27:11 GMT
I found this article when looking for pictures from SSR. It's an interesting read with great pictures. It also includes this information "Trumpeter John Martin said that after climbing to the base of the ridge, they stopped and looked out over the valley and that location was about 300 yards from the Reno-Benteen defense site. The Crow scouts would later say that the location was near the Lt. Benny Hodgson marker. The Hodgson marker has since been relocated below the bluffs and near the river, but at the time the Crow shared their accounts it was just below us near the pullout where our tour bus was parked. From where we stood, on the south end of the ridge, Custer could see about two thirds of the village. The Cheyenne camp, at the downstream end, would have been obscured by Weir Point." I see bc, Gerry and myself in one of the pictures. With a range finder it is over 600 yards from the closest point on SRR to Reno/Benteen. From the top where we were standing is even further.
These three routes don't effect timing but SSR would make Thompson and Martin accounts less likely. Cedar and west just past Weir are consistent with thier accounts.
Regards
Steve
Steve, are you are in this shot? I wondered when I posted the link if you had been there. I hope Donahue gets that book out soon. Beth
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Post by yanmacca on Jan 16, 2017 10:16:16 GMT
Where I am trying to take this thread, is to try and determine what route Custer took from Reno Creek to the LNC Ridges and if that route would take him away from the western edge of those bluffs.
Now we can only use our own common sense and the dubious accounts of a few stragglers, scouts and couriers. The accounts themselves can be confusing but some of the stragglers mention that they went off to chase Indians to the northeast (I think), and the scouts say that the column diverted to the right, which is also east or northeast, the couriers too mention about bending to the right.
So we do see a pattern here which leans towards a move to the right or east, which would take the column away from the western edge of the bluffs.
Now the other option we cannot discount, is that Custer and a small party, may have went to the edge of the bluffs, while the main column went east and this party may have contained Custer, another officer and Martini, which is believable because Martini was attached to the HQ, Kanipe was not.
This is why I am pushing this a bit, because I am trying to work out if Custer and the whole column, actually saw the village before the note was sent and this view was enough for Custer to head east without taking a closer look.
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Jan 16, 2017 11:33:52 GMT
I see bc, Gerry and myself in one of the pictures. With a range finder it is over 600 yards from the closest point on SRR to Reno/Benteen. From the top where we were standing is even further.
These three routes don't effect timing but SSR would make Thompson and Martin accounts less likely. Cedar and west just past Weir are consistent with thier accounts.
Regards
Steve
Steve, are you are in this shot? I wondered when I posted the link if you had been there. I hope Donahue gets that book out soon. Beth Yes on the left. bc in the yellow and Gerry on the right.
Steve
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Jan 16, 2017 11:52:25 GMT
Where I am trying to take this thread, is to try and determine what route Custer took from Reno Creek to the LNC Ridges and if that route would take him away from the western edge of those bluffs. Now we can only use our own common sense and the dubious accounts of a few stragglers, scouts and couriers. The accounts themselves can be confusing but some of the stragglers mention that they went off to chase Indians to the northeast (I think), and the scouts say that the column diverted to the right, which is also east or northeast, the couriers too mention about bending to the right. So we do see a pattern here which leans towards a move to the right or east, which would take the column away from the western edge of the bluffs. Now the other option we cannot discount, is that Custer and a small party, may have went to the edge of the bluffs, while the main column went east and this party may have contained Custer, another officer and Martini, which is believable because Martini was attached to the HQ, Kanipe was not. This is why I am pushing this a bit, because I am trying to work out if Custer and the whole column, actually saw the village before the note was sent and this view was enough for Custer to head east without taking a closer look. Ian
SRR is along side of Cedar Coulee and at the end to bail off into MTC you ride into Cedar Coulee. Donahue's route is the next drain west of Cedar Coulee. So all three routes are away from the edge of the bluffs. According to Thompson Custer takes another look past Weir. Weir blocks portions of all views no matter how which you choose.
The only question I see is did the 5 companies ride up adjacent to Reno Hill or did they ride up further east and come up toward SSR and over it.
The movement to the east or away from the edge is forced by Weir. The road was not completed through Weir yet.
Regards
Steve
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