mac
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Post by mac on May 11, 2019 13:12:15 GMT
Thank you AZ. I walked the road and so I looked down into Cedar as I came to Weir. The route makes sense to me. Cheers
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mac
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Post by mac on May 13, 2019 12:24:44 GMT
Contemplating Custer's route, which I have not done much about before, and thinking of the maxim of use the high ground. SSR does stand out when one is on the bluffs above the valley and I am still not sure Custer would not use it then turn left and go down MTC before exiting as AZ shows opposite Middle. Ties in with reports of him going down MTC. Here is an account
Runs the Enemy noticed two Indians waving blankets on the eastern bluffs. Crossing over with another Indian, he heard them yell that the soldiers were “coming, and they were going to get our women and children.” He continued to the crest and the sight shocked him. “As I looked along the line of the ridge they seemed to fill the whole hill,” he said. “It looked as if there were thousands of them, and I thought we would surely be beaten.” Runs The Enemy raced downhill, across the river and back down the valley.
Could the ridge he mentions be SSR? Runs the Enemy was in the valley fight and so would be in position to observe this view.
Cheers
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Post by yanmacca on May 13, 2019 14:36:41 GMT
I would expect that Custer knew that the Indians had spotted him, but he had to ignore that fact because Reno would have already caused the village to react and this reaction would cause the women and children to flee, so he would have to achieve his attack against only a partly suprized village. That is why he moved so fast, don't forget he had recieved reports that the Indians were not running but coming back on them, so would taking a longer more slower route be a viable option for him at this point? I would guess that he would rather try and reach his objective in one piece against a partly surprized target then dodging and weaving and arriving too late.
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azranger
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Post by azranger on May 15, 2019 15:40:38 GMT
I sure wish we could all go on top of SSR and see how little you can see. You can not see the river and a lot of the riparian area. You can see the red roof Fort Custer closed building. You can see the frontage road and highway and you can about 1/2 the distance between the red roof and river.
There is also the accounts that state that Custer went down a ravine. SSR does not fit that description. The ravine to the west of SSR is Cedar Coulee. There is only one small portion of SSR that gives you a view of the valley. It is after the Reno/Benteen area and before Weir. It is before the Cedar drainage starts dropping in elevation.
Martin describe going uphill and then moving across a flat area and then going downhill. There is no flat on SSR. The flat area is where the current road runs toward the Reno/Benteen battlefield.
Regards
Steve
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azranger
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Post by azranger on May 15, 2019 15:46:01 GMT
I would like to see the evidence for going to East and then crossing another drainage before moving up toward Luce. I don't have any so it would be nice to see what we have to support that route.
Thanks
Steve
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mac
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Post by mac on May 16, 2019 21:59:11 GMT
I sure wish we could all go on top of SSR and see how little you can see. You can not see the river and a lot of the riparian area. You can see the red roof Fort Custer closed building. You can see the frontage road and highway and you can about 1/2 the distance between the red roof and river.
There is also the accounts that state that Custer went down a ravine. SSR does not fit that description. The ravine to the west of SSR is Cedar Coulee. There is only one small portion of SSR that gives you a view of the valley. It is after the Reno/Benteen area and before Weir. It is before the Cedar drainage starts dropping in elevation.
Martin describe going uphill and then moving across a flat area and then going downhill. There is no flat on SSR. The flat area is where the current road runs toward the Reno/Benteen battlefield.
Regards
Steve Thanks AZ! The first part with respect to visibility would be not known to anyone until they actually got there I suspect. Your last two paragraphs and the following message (not quoted here) are exactly what is needed. You know I love evidence and the terrain analysis is excellent. Cheers
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azranger
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Post by azranger on May 17, 2019 11:24:17 GMT
Mac
I think Weir dominates the skyline and one would have no expectation to see what was below or past it from SSR. We would all know that if we move to the edge of the bluffs or on top of Weir your viewscape is greater than from anywhere else in the vicinity south of MTC.
I think Custer would be negligent to not have someone look from the bluffs/Weir adjacent the river. If you are planning on the fly then you need as much current information as possible to make decisions. One of the best views of the valley is from a hill on the 7th Ranch.
Regards
Steve
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azranger
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Post by azranger on May 17, 2019 11:46:16 GMT
Mac
Trying to clarify for me what you mean by until you get there. I think there are obvious terrain features that you see that have an expectation of a view before you get there. In 2009 when I visited the battlefield with my son I had him stop the car and I got out and walked up to fencepost for my first time. What I saw was a ridable slopping point that was on the edge of the bluffs that looked like I could ride up it and keep covered until I broke over the top. It would be easy to sit on your horse and view with glass without your horse being visible to the valley if that is what you desired.
What I think is that those places including Weir would be obvious viewpoints and it would be unexpected that if you moved to them that you could not see better. The closer you are to river the less likely there is terrain features that would limit your view.
Regards
Steve
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azranger
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Post by azranger on May 17, 2019 12:09:06 GMT
Here is a map from the 1959 NPS brochure.
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mac
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Post by mac on May 18, 2019 8:58:49 GMT
Interesting map AZ! I like it . By "til you get there" I mean that SSR looms large and might appear a good vantage point but from your description it is indeed quite poor. This is the thing about the terrain there, so many ups and downs to hid features and people and to impede sight lines. I certainly endorse the value of Weir as an observation point as too are many spots along the bluffs.
To come back to Weir himself, I have always wondered if he had any comment on any signs of Custer that he may have found as he moved that way. As you know I have previously not looked too hard at details other than the "end game". Cheers
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azranger
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Post by azranger on May 18, 2019 13:23:27 GMT
When you drive on the highway or frontage road you can't tell the bluffs from SSR. It is much higher but it blends in the view. I think the route from Reno Creek would be something to look at but harder to do because of all the private property.
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Jul 30, 2020 16:50:39 GMT
So let's try something non political. Benteen stated the battlefield looked as if someone had thrown a handful of corn. There are a lot of comments that he was only slamming Custer. But what if he believed it and stated what he saw. Would a retrograde in progress that was stopped at all locations nearly simultaneous look like throwing a handful of corn?
Regards
Steve
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Post by quincannon on Jul 30, 2020 18:19:06 GMT
Yes and no. Maybe, maybe not. Could be. Perhaps. Might be. That is like saying the ocean is wet. It tells you something, but at the same time tells you nothing.
Benteen was trying to relay, I suspect, that what he saw was a mess, but that mess could have happened any number of ways, and he could not put his finger on just how it occurred. He did not know what happened, any more than we do other than 200 plus people were killed, and they were spread out over nearly a square mile. He also made the statement before anyone talked with the first Indian witness. Nothing, therefore,that he concludes can be taken seriously at that point in time. Only when Benteen's observations are added to the other bits and pieces of testimony, data, and artifacts, can any dim picture of what probably happened emerge. Among those possible pictures is a retrograde, always a very messy operation, that was stopped at several different places, at or near the same time.
The only idiots that believe he was slamming Custer with that comment, are the people who hate Benteen, and love Custer. Those people too should not be taken seriously.
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benteen
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Post by benteen on Jul 30, 2020 18:43:49 GMT
So let's try something non political. Benteen stated the battlefield looked as if someone had thrown a handful of corn. There are a lot of comments that he was only slamming Custer. But what if he believed it and stated what he saw. Would a retrograde in progress that was stopped at all locations nearly simultaneous look like throwing a handful of corn? Regards Steve Steve, My opinion is that if a retrograde in progress had been stopped, there would have been some sign of at least an attempt at an organized defense . Benteen stated the following.... "I went over the battlefield carefully with a view to determine in my own mind how the fight was fought. I arrived at the conclusion then as I have now that it was a rout, a panic,till the last man was killed; that there was no line formed. There was no line on the battlefield; you can take a handful of corn and scatter it over the floor and make just such lines" Capt Fred Benteen was as a man a cranky SOB and detested anyone who got rank above him, but he was a brave man and an excellent Officer. I dont believe he would ever say a lie about something that would belittle or defame the actions of his brother Officers and men just to get a slap at Custer. Just my opinion. Be Well Steve Good to talk to you again Semper Fi Dan
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Post by yanmacca on Jul 30, 2020 18:48:47 GMT
I expect that when any advance was stopped, the main option would be to get back south. But would this need a halt by all involved to set the wheels in motion?
If Custer calls for a retrograde and his battalion is on different locations, then any orders would need to be forwarded to all company commanders. This could be why they halted a threw out a skirmish line, once the orders were passed and the companies started to pull back the company in skirmish lost their horses from an attack on the horse holders, this would either fix them or force them to flee to a safer place.
But what effect would this have on Custer and say company F, so lets say that it was company E in skirmish and F was up to then not committed, would the sight of E getting hit from a flank and losing their mounts force Custer to commit F? Is this happened then both E and F had lost their turn in any retrograde and this meant that only L, C & I got to the southern end of battle ridge.
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