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Post by deadwoodgultch on May 6, 2019 10:40:44 GMT
Yea, even the post was not good to the last drop. Certainly no intelligence required by my response. Then again the very lacking post really did not require any. I guess you could just go finger for finger. Oh, and if just HQ and a couple of companies went north towards D was not the return to LSH a north to south flow. Maybe Mad Max is just directionally challenged.
Regards, Tom
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azranger
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Post by azranger on May 6, 2019 23:12:05 GMT
I guess we need to define East Ridge. The route that the scout draws a map for is down Middle. Cedar Coulée has 5 fingers running into MTC one (little finger) is adjacent Middle and the other SSR (thumb). Unless you are go down Middle you are moving east away from MTF.
Are we ignoring that the gray horses moved toward MTF? If so how does Martin get within 600 yards of MTF and Thompson see troops engaged?
If you go down SSR and straight across you hit what some are calling East (Eastern) Ridge. In order to go that route you would climb out cross East and drop into a north fork of Medicine Tail Coulée and climb out adding and additional drainage to cross.
Here is Clair's map that labels some of what we are discussing.
Regards
Steve
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mac
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Post by mac on May 7, 2019 22:15:26 GMT
I guess we need to define East Ridge. The route that the scout draws a map for is down Middle. Cedar Coulée has 5 fingers running into MTC one (little finger) is adjacent Middle and the other SSR (thumb). Unless you are go down Middle you are moving east away from MTF.
Are we ignoring that the gray horses moved toward MTF? If so how does Martin get within 600 yards of MTF and Thompson see troops engaged?
If you go down SSR and straight across you hit what some are calling East (Eastern) Ridge. In order to go that route you would climb out cross East and drop into a north fork of Medicine Tail Coulée and climb out adding and additional drainage to cross.
Here is Clair's map that labels some of what we are discussing.
Regards
Steve From the first paragraph AZ I take it that you make a left turn into Middle from Cedar. Is that correct? If it is, then how does that relate to the directions (left right etc) that Martini gives? Cheers
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Post by yanmacca on May 8, 2019 11:26:56 GMT
What if we place Steves route from SSR, through Middle Coulee to MTC and match it up with the cartridge finds, would that give us more of an idea?
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azranger
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Post by azranger on May 8, 2019 16:36:32 GMT
I guess we need to define East Ridge. The route that the scout draws a map for is down Middle. Cedar Coulée has 5 fingers running into MTC one (little finger) is adjacent Middle and the other SSR (thumb). Unless you are go down Middle you are moving east away from MTF.
Are we ignoring that the gray horses moved toward MTF? If so how does Martin get within 600 yards of MTF and Thompson see troops engaged?
If you go down SSR and straight across you hit what some are calling East (Eastern) Ridge. In order to go that route you would climb out cross East and drop into a north fork of Medicine Tail Coulée and climb out adding and additional drainage to cross.
Here is Clair's map that labels some of what we are discussing.
Regards
Steve From the first paragraph AZ I take it that you make a left turn into Middle from Cedar. Is that correct? If it is, then how does that relate to the directions (left right etc) that Martini gives? Cheers Mac
I can duplicate what Martin, Curley, and Thompson state in their accounts if Custer moves into MTC and sends at least E toward MTF and at least CIL continues straight across an up to Luce. You can throw in Maguires map and drawings from Indian sources. I am not sure it is even possible to ride a reasonable line of travel across East without leaving some artifacts. If it happened and they did not take the route across from Middle did that delay caused by climbing East and down give the Indians enough time to set up ambushes on Luce and NC.
At lot of this could be easier to resolve if we were there. A line on map looks easier than the ride.
As far as Martin we can't even agree if he was on 3411, fence post, or SSR. The ridge near the property ownership measures 3432 on my GPS and Brett Collies GPS. Fencepost is the picture above and it is lower so where is 3411. I rely on what I would do on a horse to see as much as possible while still maximizing use of cover.
I wish with I could get my friend Tom Spalding involved. He served in the 7th Cavalry in Vietnam. He was the Deputy Director of Arizona Game and Fish Department and also rode horses for work.
Regards
Steve
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azranger
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Post by azranger on May 8, 2019 16:47:50 GMT
Here is my full size working map. You can see my Benteen Scout to the Left ride. Two routes down Middle Coulée. The yellow line out of MTC and up to the Luce Artifact sites and Nye Cartwright sites. The short red line to the north is the distance from an Indian site to LSH. I believe that is where Wolf Tooth was firing from. It is close to Custer Creek and would be known even if he went further south.
Regards
Steve
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azranger
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Post by azranger on May 8, 2019 17:52:41 GMT
From the map Donahue has that was made by an Indian scout it shows movement down middle Coulée. As far as persons that have been there Donahue, Dale Kosman, Fred Wagner, and George Kush. I rode it twice. It travels straighter to MTC. Cedar turns away from MTC with several small drainages when you get toward MTC. You can see all of this from Weir. SSR has to be ridden on top so not sure the cavalry would do that.
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Post by yanmacca on May 8, 2019 20:06:27 GMT
Steve, didn't Martini claim that they column rode straight across a ridge or hill and some regard this as SSR?
I can't remember the tribe who set up closest to the Reno skirmish line, the main camp didn't trust them so they got banished near to the timber, anyway some claim it was this camp that Martini saw from 3411.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on May 8, 2019 21:52:22 GMT
Ian, SB's camp. Gall's family killed there. There my have been a small group east of the river.
Regards, Tom
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mac
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Post by mac on May 9, 2019 8:23:10 GMT
Just to be exact AZ the green line to the south is in that end of Cedar but then drops over left into Middle to make the left (west) green line on your map. This left green line then crosses and exits to the yellow line. All this visible from Weir. Is this correct? Cheers
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Post by yanmacca on May 9, 2019 12:53:26 GMT
Ian, SB's camp. Gall's family killed there. There my have been a small group east of the river. Regards, Tom Hi Tom, yeah the Indians where from the spotted tail agency and this is the camp on the east side of the river which Martini was referring to.
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azranger
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Post by azranger on May 10, 2019 2:36:40 GMT
Steve, didn't Martini claim that they column rode straight across a ridge or hill and some regard this as SSR? I can't remember the tribe who set up closest to the Reno skirmish line, the main camp didn't trust them so they got banished near to the timber, anyway some claim it was this camp that Martini saw from 3411. Custer's tracks were observed close to the Reno/Benteen site. So he could go up on SRR but to move down it he has to stay on top. If so then Thompson and lots of Indians could see him. There is a ridge you cross right at the boundary between private and NPS land. You can stay on the bluffs and move across Weir. You can start down Cedar and turn left than right down Middle. You can continue down Cedar and you have 5 choices of drainages. The one furthest from the Ford is the same place you come off SSR.
One year we rode on top of SSR and Chip Watts explained why he didn't think it was the route do to visibility of the valley.
Myself I am going to stick with the scouts map of the route. We know they were on the bluffs overlooking the village which is long ways from SSR.
For me Martin's testimony about cutting back cross country to the bluffs is a big help to determine what he did. He would be close to West Coulée and could cut back to the ridge between Middle and Cedar. I see no reason to go back to SSR and cross 5 drainages. The west side of SSR is rough and visible on Google Maps.
Myself I would not ride down the top of SSR for you could be seen in three directions and shot at from cover and concealment from the west ridge of Cedar Coulée and a large drainage (Cedar) between shooters and troopers.
You guys could be right but where are the artifacts on SSR and East and how much longer would it take.
Ian it would be good to see the exact wording. Riding across SSR would not get you to MTC you would have to ride down the top of it.
Regards
Steve
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azranger
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Post by azranger on May 10, 2019 3:02:09 GMT
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Post by azranger on May 11, 2019 4:14:11 GMT
Just to be exact AZ the green line to the south is in that end of Cedar but then drops over left into Middle to make the left (west) green line on your map. This left green line then crosses and exits to the yellow line. All this visible from Weir. Is this correct? Cheers
Mac
The green lines are the width of the Middle Coulée corridor. I believe the left line to closer to the route they took. It is easy to stay below the military crest and thus out of sight. The other side would expose you to fire from the ridge separating Middle and West.
(If you believe Thompson's account it easy to go from Middle to West and then the trail down off the bluffs. The current paved road from the parking at Weir turns west and goes across the upper end of Middle then crosses over to West. Shortly after it turns down toward MTC is a the trail that would be easy to ride down to the river. There are no man made enhancements but you can see where some have driven on the trail.
As far as visibility the answer is yes. When you are on Weir you are looking down Middle. The ridge separating Middle and Cedar is what some call the loaf. I was at the end of it last year with my friend and we could see how Cedar spreads out near MTC. The actual drainage near the bottom turns to the east and there are four other drainage that go into MTC.
I think part of the problem is road cuts through Weir and changes the viewscapes unless you cross over to the other side. I try to get my monies worth of the $100 I paid for lifetime access so I go a lot of places.
Regards
Steve
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azranger
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Post by azranger on May 11, 2019 4:48:03 GMT
Mac
To answer the to be exact. Here is my latest working map and if you look at the r where I pinned "The Cut Below Weir " and go straight up until you hit MTC that is where Cedar flows into MTC. It makes a large turn toward the east just past the cut.
Regards
Steve
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