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Post by quincannon on Aug 14, 2016 17:29:44 GMT
This thread is generated by a PM Mac wrote to me a few days ago. His suggestion was to collectively compose an article for publication. After discussion I believe both of us are in agreement that we are just not to that point yet, and probably will not be for some time. It did occur to me though that while we have discussed bits and pieces of this over the last many months, we have never put anything we have discussed in chronological order. That is what I will attempt to do here, place these speculated events in some order. I do it in an open thread so that over time it can be revised by editing, new events inserted, others deleted if we cannot verify the event by the preponderance of effort. The event outline will be maintained in this one post, however to help me out I welcome all of your thoughts, maps, and graphics.
1) Custer with five companies turns onto the bluffs after sending Reno with three companies and a scout contingent down the valley toward the Indian encampment.
2) Custer travels on the bluffs, but away from the western edge of those bluffs to avoid detection.
3) Custer halts his column, and a small party, including himself, travel a short way to the vicinity of Bench Mark 3411 to view Reno's situation on the valley floor. Custer is apparently satisfied with what he sees and returns to the column and again starts its forward motion.
4) Custer's battalion is now heading in a generally northeasterly direction, and crosses Medicine Tail Coulee and ascends East Ridge. It is during this period that Custer dispatches Martini with the note to Benteen. He also sends a small party of scouts, probably Boyer with the three Crows, to the vicinity of Medicine Tail Coulee Ford (Ford B) to observe and report on activities at that place.
5) Custer now turns generally northward, following the ridgeline East-Luce-Blummer/Nye/Cartwright. The probable order of march is now Company F, followed by Companies E, I, L, and C in that order. It is also possible that the battalion is split into two groupings separated by one tactical bound, for purposes of security. The order of march remains the same. The separation is between the trail of Company E and the head of Company I.
6) It is probably on Blummer/Nye/Cartwright Ridge that the column is sighted by Wolf Tooth's band and taken under long range fire. It is highly probable that all or the greater portion of the Custer battalion dismounts and deploys in skirmish order, and exchanges fire with Wolf Tooth, who draws off and proceeds northward. The column remounts and starts northward again.
7) The column (s) again move north. Wolf Tooth is still harassing from some distance, but more importantly sends messengers to the village to warn them of Custer's approach. He alone at this point has determined Custer's objective, the lower fords. Once Custer's column passes Calhoun Hill that is the only objective he could have. Speed becomes even more important to Custer now. He knows Reno can only hold on so long. He knows it will take time for Benteen to get up, time he does not have. No time for anything fancy, his fuse is burning down, and he must get to those lower fords before it explodes.
8) Custer's battalion continues north in two columns, proceeding behind (east side) of Battle Ridge and then Battle Ridge Extension until he turns west approximately following the general course of Highway 212. He tops the ridge near the present Trading Post and starts his descent into the level ground heading toward to river and the fords (probably very near where the highway and railroad bridges are now).
9) The first column (F and E) stay to the left, deploy into line of battle with about a hundred meters separating the two companies. They are the first (and maybe only) to reach the river, where Company E makes contact. Companies C-I-L are still in column at tis point and are moving around to form the right side of the line of battle.
10) The contact Company E meets soon (like a minute or two) reveals that there are more Indians streaming north then they or the entire force can handle, and the impossibility of even an opposed river crossing is apparent. Custer has lost the race to the lower fords.
11) Indians continue to stream across the river, and it is soon apparent that the Custer battalion must retreat to the high ground to their rear. Custer can still have his battle in the north, but it will not be one of attack. He must defend, and have the enemy impale themselves on his fire. Odds at this point are probably on the order of two or three to one, suitable for a defensive battle. Two companies (E-F) move to Cemetery Ridge with Company E taking up a dismounted position on the face of that ridge while Company F remains mounted and positions itself to the left rear of Company E to both refuse the left flank and become the battalion reserve. Meanwhile Companies C, I, and L, never fully deployed in the valley floor move back to Battle Ridge extension, deploy and spread out along most of that features length.
12) Numbers of Indians and the pressure they exert continues to build over the next fifteen or so minutes, to the point where the line on Battle Ridge Extension is at the point of breaking. A retreat is ordered and Company L (most likely the least engaged of the three) is first off the ridge line, followed biy Company C and Company I. Their intention is to break to the rear in hopes of linking up with a friendly force to the south.
13) The three companies that move off of BRE are each stopped, two by blocking forces (Companies L and C sequentially), and one is slammed in the flank while moving (Company I). Meanwhile pressure from front, flank, and ultimately the rear overwhelm Companies E and F, at or near their original stationary location in the Cemetery Ridge, Last Stand Hill area ------ FINIS
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Post by yanmacca on Aug 14, 2016 18:19:09 GMT
If we stick to events in order then the Martini/note episode must come next, because if we include Kanipe we would have to back track, but I am happy to leave him out of the proceedings.
Then it’s the route to LNC, did he go via Cedar coulee? The Crows would be on his right flank and Bouyer would also be back and to along this route too.
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Post by quincannon on Aug 14, 2016 18:31:16 GMT
That is the type of feedback Ian that is necessary to keep this thread honest and on chronological track.
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Post by yanmacca on Aug 14, 2016 18:32:32 GMT
Speed would be paramount in Custer’s mind and would Cedar be too narrow and rugged to allow for traveling? As I would expect them to travel in fours, this would allow them to keep up to speed, but if the coulee is narrow then they would have to change to twos and string themselves out along the floor.
Another thing to consider is when would they first be aware of Wolftooth, this band of around fifty would not be strong enough to take on the column but it would make them think and maybe it made them go onto the high ground and keep out of the coulees.
Another thing I think we could expel by this time is the notion of the F Company detail, as this small detachment of around five men would be easy pickings for Wolftooth.
By the look of the amount of Government issued cartridges along Ney-Cartwright, we may be looking at more than one company in skirmish, either that or they all fired from horse back.
These things may sound trivial, but I think they need to be addressed before we try to establish a move to Battle Ridge.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Aug 14, 2016 20:01:35 GMT
Ian, if speed is paramount, then we understand why some of the more jaded horses drop out, witness Thompson.
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Post by yanmacca on Aug 14, 2016 20:12:39 GMT
You bet Tom, five dropped out from C Company alone, Two from E Company, one from F Company and one from I Company. That’s nine from the Custer battalion who failed to make it to the objective due to their horses packing in.
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Post by quincannon on Aug 14, 2016 22:36:25 GMT
With fifty I would happily take on 200 if I had no intention to close with them, but only harass and delay.
The twos and fours thing or even the exact route Custer takes is not really very important, nor is the withdrawal of an advance security detachment (from F). These are the details we may wish to know, but have no real way of determining. They are lost to time. The important elements are, I believe, general direction of travel, speed in traveling, and the impact of Wolf Tooth. Wolf Tooth is a key to success or failure. Visibility on the back side of those ridges is generally both good and long range, therefore points and flankers take on less importance, even more so if they are traveling in two groupings.
Be patient. The complete story that we have put together will unfold over the next 36 hours.
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Post by Beth on Aug 14, 2016 23:12:37 GMT
You bet Tom, five dropped out from C Company alone, Two from E Company, one from F Company and one from I Company. That’s nine from the Custer battalion who failed to make it to the objective due to their horses packing in. It might also explain why they stopped while Custer went to 3411--wouldn't it give the horses a chance to rest after the climb from the valley to the bluffs or would that climb be trivial? The question might be did they stop so Custer could see Reno or did Custer go over to see what Reno was up to because there was a need to stop and rest horses and Custer wasn't go great at staying still.
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Sept 11, 2016 9:12:58 GMT
True Beth! This thread is a good idea...let's keep it going as an extension/summary of the existing discussion of the North to South theory. Cheers
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Post by yanmacca on Sept 12, 2016 10:46:28 GMT
If we read what the scouts said then they say that Custer's column rode up and over SSR and down into cedar coulee, they then stopped at the confluence of MTC and cedar and were overlooked by Weir ridge, the scouts refer to this point as the bend, which probably means were one coulee joins another. The column stopped here and Custer ordered the scouts to go back.
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Post by Maxwell on May 5, 2019 7:28:48 GMT
This is a topic that I have a hard time understanding the logic someone uses to justify the north to south battle flow theory.No disrespect meant but there are really intelligent people here and this thread is something that should be on a message board for fairy tales. Someone please explain to me how they have came to this conclusion.
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Post by yanmacca on May 5, 2019 9:24:15 GMT
Greetings Maxwell!
Instead of us explaining the whole north to South theory to you, I suggest that you read what we have discussed in the 'Custer moves north with five companies'' thread, and then see if you think we are still fantasists.
The only way you can disrespect our work as a collective is to have been at the battle in 1876, and of course you were not.
BTW; give us your companies interpretation on how things unfolded after Custer reached MTC, or does it come straight out of a book you picked up in a bargin bin somewhere.
Any way, it looks as if you have cut and run instead of standing your ground. That fact that you have done that, doesn’t really give you a right to ask for an explanation.
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Post by quincannon on May 5, 2019 15:51:03 GMT
I find Maxwell's post a bit disconcerting. He stipulates that there are some intelligent people on this board, and by extension, there was some intelligence present in developing the five company north scenario. He then goes on to say that scenario is a fairy tale.
You don't get away with this sort of hit and run Maxwell. If it is a fairy tale then tell us why you think that, and at the same time give us what you think happened.
You won't of course. You are a coward thrice over. You don't register. You don't explain yourself. You run, back into your hole. No guts Sunshine, no guts at all.
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Post by yanmacca on May 5, 2019 18:15:38 GMT
I don't think he lives in a hole Chuck, it will be a house, Maxwell House!
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Post by quincannon on May 5, 2019 18:30:46 GMT
I am afraid that you are doing Maxwell House a disservice Ian.
He does not have to like what we say, just tell us why.
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