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Post by yanmacca on Oct 20, 2016 19:15:37 GMT
How many pages would the book have without Hunkpapas chapter?
Could the book do without his work?
I am just asking because why go to all the trouble to ask an British guy from the other side of the Atlantic to contribute a chapter if it didn't warrant it.
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Post by Beth on Oct 20, 2016 20:43:57 GMT
I believe it was needed but it is a bit shocking to the reader to have such an abrupt change of writing style at the most important point of the book. It's kind of like having a Tootsie pop that you have carefully licked down to the chocolate center only to find that it's hollow.
I agree that Tory did a huge amount of work getting the book out and it could not have been an easy job. It had to be difficult to try to condense so much of her father's work between the covers of one book. This month was the 5th anniversary from when I lost my own father and I still have difficulty dealing with the loss. I can't even imagine what it would have been for Tory. I hope, in the end, it gave her peace.
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Oct 21, 2016 17:31:59 GMT
How many pages would the book have without Hunkpapas chapter? Could the book do without his work? I am just asking because why go to all the trouble to ask an British guy from the other side of the Atlantic to contribute a chapter if it didn't warrant it. The increased volume is the reference material. I would share some of my inner understandings over some beer in Montana but not in postings or PMs. I know two thirds of the accounts of what occurred.
I think what was a surprise is the chapter written by Hunkpapa was not what was expected. It was anticipated to be the best shot at what Gordie would have written. Instead we see a chapter within a book that has its own conclusions different than the majority of the work done by the author.
Since it is a long way to travel to Montana a PM will get my telephone number.
Regards
Steve
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Post by yanmacca on Oct 21, 2016 20:02:21 GMT
I would love to have a chat with you Steve, in fact there are a few here who I have known for ages and never spoken to. The problem is the cost and once I get gabbing I would run up a bill bigger then my mortgage.
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Oct 26, 2016 12:30:02 GMT
BENTEEN'S LEFT OBLIQUE AND RETURN TO ASH CREEK
Our ICE event was planned for 2010 with 5 members. Only two made it myself and Terry Craft. Tori Harper came to stand in for he dad. That year we were up for doing some GPS locations and we (Chip, Terry, AZ Ranger) rode the Benteen scout location following the work of Darling.
Gordie calls Reno Creek Ash Creek. You can call it anything but there are numerous Ash Creeks in close proximity. One is just north of Reno Creek and drains into the Rosebud.
I do not know if Gordie had been in terrain for Benteen's scout to the left. He suggests it rough but not so rough for messengers from Custer. He suggests it was not so forbidding as some made out. He does agree it had an effect on pace.
So I agree and disagree. It would be easier to move up and down a drainage if taking a Custer message from and back to Reno Creek. Roman my horse who was ranch conditioned found it as described with numerous ups and downs and defiles. Roman soaked clear through my wool saddle pad. I have never had a horse in Arizona soak through that pad. In our travel down noname it was 103 degrees and no wind.
Gordie then states that he finds nothing in the orders to Benteen until later statements to pitch into anything that he found. Gordie had done a lot of research and I have not checked all of references.
My thought is sending the same number of companies into the unknown as was sent to the Big Village would favor that Custer expected an opportunity to pitch into something. The difference between a sending well mounted troopers to scout as compared to three companies with all horses in those companies is consistent with an expectation of contact.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by yanmacca on Oct 26, 2016 12:53:33 GMT
Steve, would Custer have any idea by just looking at the area he sent Benteen, that he would be riding against the grain of the land?
I recall Benteen sending out a small detachment to ride in advance, but did Benteen order this detachment or did Custer?
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Post by Beth on Oct 26, 2016 19:55:46 GMT
I wonder what Harper thought Custer expected Benteen to do if Benteen came across on outlying village? Or did Harper feel Custer had no expectation for there to be any NA found on the left oblique?
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Post by chardvc on Oct 26, 2016 19:56:48 GMT
Steve, would Custer have any idea by just looking at the area he sent Benteen, that he would be riding against the grain of the land? I recall Benteen sending out a small detachment to ride in advance, but did Benteen order this detachment or did Custer? There's a bit in the RCOI where someone from Benteen's command (I think Godfrey) says that Custer "suggested" that Benteen should deploy a party of outriders but that in actuality Benteen was himself mounted on such a fast horse that he (and others) overtook them.
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Post by yanmacca on Oct 27, 2016 11:09:47 GMT
I wonder what Harper thought Custer expected Benteen to do if Benteen came across on outlying village? Or did Harper feel Custer had no expectation for there to be any NA found on the left oblique? Exactly Beth, if Custer was worried enough to send three vital companies left with one of his most experienced commanders, then there should be no guarantee that he will be available to help out in the valley.
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Oct 27, 2016 12:22:08 GMT
I don't know what Gordie thought. What seems to be a theme from Weibert and others is that Benteen was to move at angle that made him contact the LBH further south than the Reno Creek junction.
If Benteen continued on that angle of the original line it would be true. It would also be to late in my opinion but Benteen could have made to the river. So the theme I see is that Benteen route was not that hard to traverse and therefor Benteen could keep up with Custer. Whoever thinks that did not ride where I rode. So in order to avoid that are area you have move way north making it close to 15-20 miles. That road eventually hits the vicinity of the divide and the 1874 expedition marker. From the direction that Custer had to travel in the dog leg to the Reno Creek Valley the road would be 180 degrees or directly opposite Custer's travel after sending Benteen.
I find it interesting that the only way that Benteen could avoid riding across the drainages is move way south toward the heads of the drainages. We drove that area in my GMC 4X4 two years ago. It was easier travel but a long distance. We were on SU road which is the name of all the roads out there according to my Nuvi (GPS).
I think Benteen maintained approximately the route we rode horseback in 2010 and the advance team rode back and forth to look down the drainages. We turned toward Reno Creek where Gibson had marked a location on a map. It was on a narrow ridge between noname and SFRC. I took a picture but even now I am not sure that we can see the LBH. I think it is a wide area of Reno Creek just before LBH.
Regards
Steve
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Post by Beth on Oct 27, 2016 20:50:24 GMT
Okay I am having a dense moment (or day) but I don't understand how anyone could believe that Benteen could keep up with Custer. If you remove the names and even the horses and just have two car traveling across a wide flat area-the car traveling at an angle (B) is going to fall further behind to the car (A) driving straight, unless the car (A) stops to wait for the car (B) to reach whatever it's goal is before it turns so they can then proceed at parallel angles. It's even a worse difference if you expect car (B) to then move back to join (A).
I don't know if the point I am making is clear or if I am totally off track but basically that if all things were even between the terrain that Custer and Benteen were traveling on, Benteen is never going to keep up with Custer because he would be traveling a greater distance. The only way that Benteen could have kept up would have been for Custer to adjust rate of travel to keep them together.
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Post by yanmacca on Oct 28, 2016 13:07:37 GMT
No Beth you are on the right track, Custer would probably conclude that if Benteen stayed out of trouble that he would end up arriving back on the main trail and in between the Custer/Reno battalions and the pack train, and that is why I guess, that he wanted Benteen to bring the packs.
Imagine if Benteen received the note as he was deploying his men to support Reno in the valley, now that would leave him between a rock and a hard place, does he still support Reno and detach a detail to go back and bring in the pack train into a fire zone?
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Oct 28, 2016 13:48:31 GMT
Here is the point I believe. In hindsight we know that Reno left the valley just as Benteen arrived. Anything that keeps Reno in the valley and/or Benteen's arrival in the valley is believed by some to be the defeat of Custer's plan.
So the questions they ask themselves are could Reno have stayed 15 minutes more, could Benteen increased is overall speed and arrived 15 sooner, or any combination of timing that keeps Reno in the valley when Benteen arrives.
I see the decision making as dynamic and reacting in real time so my answer is no. They did what they did in real time. Nothing that Reno or Benteen did could not be expected as one of the possible outcomes of an officer in charge making a decision.
When we move to the what if Reno stayed and Benteen moved faster than it should apply to Custer also. What if Custer followed Reno into the valley. Reno would have stayed longer and Benteen could cross at Ford A.
Regards
Steve
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Oct 28, 2016 13:59:29 GMT
Here is my expectation of an author. They have formed opinions and should provide the sources they used in making informed opinions that they write about. They should be past the collecting of further basic research when they write their book. Of course there is always new information available or a look at older information from a different prospective. Authors such as Fred and Gordie invested a lot of time gathering their research. My expectation is that they are not willing to change their opinions easily. The difference as I see it is that both of these authors have invested tens of years of their lives developing their opinions.
It is not reasonable to ask them to change without a lot of supporting new evidence. So use them as a source but if you disagree with their opinion you are on your own.
Regards Steve
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Post by yanmacca on Oct 28, 2016 14:01:51 GMT
You are right Steve and there are many out there who take these imponderables too far and lay blame to Reno and Benteen.
If Reno knew that all he had to do was to hang on another fifteen minutes and Benteen would arrive to his left and Custer would draw off even more braves to defend the north, then I think he would have done just that, but he didn’t.
If Benteen knew that all he had to do was forget the packs and bust a gut to reach Reno, to allow for Custer to make his mark up north, then he should have done so, but he also didn’t know.
I look at it this way, and I have no dog in this fight concerning Reno’s cowardice and Benteen’s dawdling, hell I don’t even own a dog, but the way I see it is, there was enough Indians in the valley and village to defeat both groups (Custer’s 210 and Reno/Benteen’s 270).
I would guess that even a conservative estimate of 2000 braves split between both groups with 1000 against GAC and another 1000 in the valley would tip the scales in favour on an Indian victory, and if anyone disagrees then go and read the Rosebud fight.
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