Custer Moves to Ford D with Five Companies Part A

[quincannon]

Ian: There are only two ways off of the cemetery hill/BRE battle position, the way they came, and down by the river. The way they came is the most logical in that they know the route. Down by the river is an iffy proposition, and would probably be used as a last resort. The middle ground over finger ridges coulees and ravines are a no go area.

Being slowly surrounded plays more into this retreat scenario, it actually makes it far more feasible as a course of action.

When you get out of a place like that your first unit out moves as far and as fast as it can. It waits for no one else. The same procedure is followed by other disengaging units, as far and as fast, and so on. There is nothing orderly about in in terms of these units moving a short distance away any marrying up to continue the journey. So each of those commanders exiting are given orders to go and when, and from that point they operate on their own until all reach the same designated rally point which by definition must be some distance away.

All of this takes time. JSIT said they took time up at the cemetery.

Engagement. Any time shots are being exchanged you are engages. Any time you find that the enemy is maneuvering around you to a favorable position you are engaged. Don't confuse the word engagement with close combat. Heavy engagement is any time the situation is in doubt.

You must accept that the situation was in doubt if you accept that the decision was made to go back south.

I found that map very confusing. Some of the lines drawn made sense, the rest not so much, I am especially speaking of the line that reverses course I think twice.

If you wish you can post a modern map on this thread, and once posted, I would be glad to give you enough graphic instructions so that the finished product would be a composite of what Colt and I have said we think happened. Would that be helpful? Then if you wish you could post that other map side by side with it and we would all have a basis for deconflicting any differences.

[mac]

A new map would be terrific.
I take Ian's point about the north end of the action and we should at some point move on to that but resolving a credible scenario for C,I and L is happening and we should finish with that first.
This current discussion makes me feel much happier about what I observed at that end of the battlefield. Especially in relation to the C markers and the compression of I into the swale. That position would be a natural gathering place for men pushed off the ridges.
Cheers

[quincannon]

I think we should get into the north end as well Mac, AFTER we finish in the south.

If what we all think, might think, or are beginning to think about the south is true then the withdrawal of those three companies has a great impact on what happened up north.

We had an expression in my youth as a platoon leader that the DLIC (Detachment Left In Contact) always gets to hold the bag. There are no two ways about it, or sugar coating the fact that you expect to lose them. You write them off mentally, then hope you are wrong and are surprised. Breaking direct contact is the hardest mission on the battlefield. It is never pretty. It never goes well, just sometimes better than others. It is a deliberate manifestation of sacrificing the few to save the many.

One of the things about breaking contact you try to do is deceive the enemy. Remembering that terrain up there as you and I both do, I don't think you could deceive a blind man, because you are completely exposed to the view of the enemy.

Now, when we finish this part the retrograde, and before we start up north, I think we must have some idea of the initial deployment array of the five companies. Without that, anything further is a fools errand.

So I ask, does anyone have any type of information on artifacts that could lead us to conclusions about where the five companies were. Keep in mind the important thing to determine is where were C-I-L prior to them moving back. As to testimony the only one that seems to stick out is Company E, the rest of the identities are really unknown.

Another thing I think critical is identifying is what would be the key terrain that would be occupied when all five companies were there, and then the two pieces of key terrain that would be necessary to occupy after the three companies withdrew. Recall what the definition of key terrain is, and caution - I am not talking about where you think E and F were, but where were the two pieces of key terrain where they should have been (see my note below). What were the primary avenues of approach? What were the secondary avenues of approach? Which of either of these would be classified as high speed?

My personal feeling is that we could do some of this, but I do not think the information exists to do it in a credible manner that we all could be satisfied, unless Steve has something more he has not told us about in his bag of tricks

NOTE:

1) Key terrain is that which possession of by a friendly force gives them a marked advantage over the adversary force

2) It is very nearly a given that Companies E and F were not in possession of key terrain during the ending state of the battle. It is far more likely they were either driven off it, or caught in the act of shifting from one piece to another. Do not make the mistake of tying marker locations to any concept of key terrain.

[mac]

At work literally only a minute but...
off the top of my head Battle Ridge Extension and Cemetery Ridge.
In the south I will ask about Battle Ridge. It overlooks Calhoun in my memory and would be a mid point spot to own perhaps.
Cheers

[yanmacca]

Mac I don't have a decent map to work from, and the artifact maps I have are too large to scan, there are a few small ones out there like the one below, which has a few items worth talking about;

[yanmacca]

Here is an artefact map which I scanned earlier, the result is pretty shitty but its the best I can do, the red and blue marks represent Indian and Army cartridges;

[mac]

As you say Ian hard to see. There appears to be a cluster of red near the word Custer in Custer Ridge Extension and a linear patch of red crossing the white contour line above the word Cemetery in Cemetery Ridge. The linear arrangement suggests fire from a line oriented at right angles to the line. Interesting to consider where those two groups were aiming their fire.
Cheers

[yanmacca]

Mac have you looked at the first map and how C Company is situated with E and F, I and L are in their right places, but C seems to be in a separate group.

[mac]

In the first map I do not understand the placement of the letter C Ian.
Cheers

[yanmacca]

Exactly Mac, neither do I.

It has to be a company position surly!

[mac]

I think it probably is a typo error Ian.
I must go now mate, sorry. Did you see my post on the second map?
Cheers

[yanmacca]

Yes I did, it appears that they are firing down into that ravine, but the lower group is on cemetery hill, now if Custer and his group was coming back up that ravine then that would mean that cemetery hill was already occupied by the enemy before the got there.

[quincannon]

The second (picto) map shows everything you need in what was key terrain up north.

Mac correctly identified it CR & and the portion of BRE north of CR.

It was not a matter of holding on to one or the other, rather both must be held, or the other was untenable. Move off of one, the other falls.

Now based upon what we know, AND the scenario now in play JSIT, who do you think held what?

First how do you think it all played out?

Second what would you do to try to accomplish the intention of (total - Five companies) withdrawal southward that could have achieved a better outcome?

[yanmacca]

Well it does say those locations plain as day on the map I posted, but what you are suggesting concerns a move by all five companies from one location to another, well there must have been an increase in enemy forces because up till now this column had been able to ride unmolested from LNC to near the ford, so this increase must have been large enough to cause them to fall back in stages, otherwise they could have simply rode though any light opposition.

Now I have only read about one company being in action on this portion of the field and that is E Company, the Indians had little difficulty in recognising this unit.

But I don’t really know what I can add to the analysis written by you and Colt, but some accounts I have read recently have suggested a confused withdrawal with some companies almost merging into one, but these accounts are not as trust worthy as the JSIT.

What I will add is that if we say that three made and two didn’t then what happened could be like the Indians said, as there are loads of accounts of how the Indians defeated the soldiers on both ends of the ridge.

[quincannon]

What I see from all that I know of what happened up there, and that is not enough to fill a whiskey jigger, is:

1) It seems fairly apparent that Custer approached with five companies, probably in two columns that were not that far separated. That he most probably came around the east side of LSH and BRE, then up and over BRE, at a point generally consistent with the present location of Highway 212, then into the flats below with the objective of crossing at Ford(s) D.

In all probability he met a rather numerous, but not overwhelming force of Indians at the ford(s), who might have crossed to the other side of the river, but not necessarily so. Custer's force was not large enough to make an opposed river crossing with any effect.

His only option then was to withdraw back to the high ground of Cemetery and Battle Ridge Extension, and deploy into line of battle. He had lost the race to the river.

The most probable order of deployment was some variation of C-I-L on BRE, with E-F on Cemetery Ridge. I find it most probable that E was on the ridge itself, with F slightly back and to the left of the line, and refusing the lines left flank. That would put them on the west side of battle ridge between CR and LSH.

There is a maneuver pause at that point, but that does not mean that the Indians were idol. The Indians kept coming across the river and massing below BRE. They were also coming across at Ford(s) C and massing in the basin below CR.

It soon became apparent to Custer that he was well over his head, and ordered a retreat, by company, to a rally point and assembly area on the L-N-C Ridge complex. I chose that place as it is south of Deep Coulee, and suitable for a short term defense. Not great mind you or long lasting, but better than anything he had seen so far.

Avenues of approach. There are in general two avenues of approach with small variations to each of them,1) Over Ford C into the basin, and 2) from the I90 interchange that generally follows Highway 212. This latter is very high speed. The first not so much.

Custer knew that if he pulled E and F off first that those coming across at C would cut off C-I-L. He also knew that if he moved C-I-L off first he would open up a high speed avenue. He was faced with two very bad choices.

He chose to move C-I-L first, and by company, thereby holding the BRE position as long as he could. His intention then was to move E and F off as quickly as possible thereafter. L-C-I depart in that order.

It was at or near this point that three things occurred. 1) The so called suicide boys launched their attack against Company E, a shallow attack into the flank. 2) The Indians on the high speed launched a sweeping envelopment up and over BRE, then slightly more east before turning due south into the area behind LSH. 3) SGM Sharrow is tasked with in all probability making contact with Terry. He does not make it very far, because he runs into the Indians on the high speed head on.

Company E's horses are run off and they are forced into the basin. Company F is forced back to LSH. Finis.