Custer Moves to Ford D with Five Companies Part A

[Beth]

Do we know where Two Moon was during the battle? It might help to tell if he was talking the cemetery or LSH.

I agree with QC about looking at what is being not said. Each man is giving us a slice of a moment in time but that slice doesn't tell the the whole story. It would be liking taking a 30 second clip from an unknown movie and trying to tell the entire plot based on the movie. However if you show a group of people 30 second clips until the whole movie is seen, you would have enough information in their accounts to tell you the plot--but only after you get all the accounts in the right order.

In the account of Low Dog he tells of riding in a charge with his friends at dismounted soldiers-but we don't know the where or when, just the what. Since he states he rushed right upon, it would seem it was close fighting. He also says that the soldiers were firing, not fired so perhaps we can assume that they were firing revolvers but not necessarily because a group as a whole might be firing, each one shot. However since they were holding their horses and fired a great many shots it would add credence to the idea it was revolvers. Now if we could just find out where Low Dog was during the battle. Was he with Crazy Horse? Ironically if knew Low Dog's battle paint we might be able to find him in a pictograph, especially those by Amos Bad Heart Bull.

[mac]

Nov 22, 2016 15:35:53 GMT yanmacca said:

Low Dog was there, but it is hard to determine were about on the battlefield he was (account written in 1881);

I called to my men, "This is a good day to die: follow me." We massed our men, and that no man should fall back, every man whipped another man's horse and we rushed right upon them. As we rushed upon them the white warriors dismounted to fire, but they did very poor shooting. They held their horse’s reins on one arm while they were shooting, but their horses were so frightened that they pulled the men all around, and a great many of their shots went up in the air and did us no harm.

If this is not enough, then I am simply at a loss and unable to contribute with the same enthusiasm, as we are starting to cherry pick accounts to suit our own theory.

Some may remember that one of the many things that disturbed me on the battlefield was standing in the Keogh markers. I could just feel that these guys were just swamped and crushed before they could deploy. This theory explains that to me. Here is my take according to this theory
Company I is moving along the back of Battle (Custer) Ridge and just past the gap they become aware of the chaos ahead. As they dismount to deploy they are struck by warriors from the gap, over the ridge and from the east.
What about Low Dog..he went between Reno Hill and the Custer fight. He fought on Custer Ridge (Battle Ridge).
Ian's quote above makes perfect sense as a description of the assault on Company I.
They are dismounting when they are smashed. What will some do? Grab their pistol and try to fire.
'they did very poor shooting"...when you do poor shooting at charging warriors it is over for you very quickly. Just look at the markers.
No need to cherry pick Ian (but your point is a very good reminder to try not to do so) because this theory works and actually solves the riddles.
Let's find some more!
Cheers

[yanmacca]

Thanks Mac, one of the things that everyone should understand is that when I post up these accounts, that I am being impartial and do not share their views, in fact I do it because if it is an account of the battle and if we can fit these accounts into the JSIT narrative then I will be delighted, but like I said that these are not my views and just because I post them it doesn't mean I agree with them.
But some times I get the idea that people think I am trying to force accounts down their throats in an attempt to change their views, which is far from the case.

[mac]

Nov 22, 2016 14:21:14 GMT yanmacca said:

Two Moons;

When Custer got on top where the stones are the troops dismounted and they tried Why tried? Warrior pressure disrupted them perhaps to lead the horses down into the gulch. I think this gulch is Cemetery Ridge probably near or above the Cemetery. The Gray Horse Company was the only troop that held their horses. The others were still mounted or already in skirmish formation?? Each man held his own and not a shot was fired while this was going on.Company E were standing to?? They were making preparations.Preparations to break contact??
There is an obvious break (gap/omission) in the narrative here concernig why the horses were turned loose. I suspect it was due to warrior action. The same action that split the defense and caused Company E to run off the ridge south and Company F to retract to LSH.
The horses in the gulch were now turned loose by the soldiers and they fled toward the river. Some were caught tied together; some jumped into the river before the Indians got there, but the Indians got them all.

Richard Fox;

The yellow key Tom
Fox references the Freeman map which is exhibit 1 for this theory. Nuf said!
Ian
Well done!
You are a genius at finding this evidence...keep at it.
Cheers

[deadwoodgultch]

Mac,
The yellow key certainly fits, as you are now rated on the board as a captain.

Regards.
Tom

[mac]

Somehow the context of that statement doesn't feel like a compliment.
I will sleep on it!
Cheers

[yanmacca]

Congrats on your promotion Captain Mac, I will try and find the full Two Moons account, as it must have the missing portion concerning the horses getting loose.
Please bare with me, as I am up to eye balls with Belgian infantry divisions at the moment.

[deadwoodgultch]

Off topic, to those in the states, Happy Thanksgiving, enjoy the family and food. To those of you across both ponds have an equally good weekend.

[yanmacca]

I will try my best Tom, all the best to you and yours and everyone else too.

[azranger]

I can't imagine that under fire they would attempt to shoot in a manner they had never trained for previously. So what was the quick way to make the horses linked up for a group of fours. Did the horse holder have the reins over his arm rather than linked together?

Sounds like some of the horses were linked and some were not or became loose. If your view is from behind a line where the horseholders were located what observations would you have?

If your  view point is to the front of the line you might be seeking cover.

Regards

AZ Ranger

[yanmacca]

Steve, we don't know in what circumstance the writer of the account relates to, if he has surprised the soldiers and hit them with a fast attack say out of a ravine, then they may still have their carbines in the saddle holder, that would mean a quick reach for the six shooter.

I have not checked on how many of the men in these two companies were either old hands or green horns, some of them may have had very little training and to be suddenly faced with a mounted attack by hostiles would be enough to scare the life out of them, as the old saying goes "fear makes you react in strange ways"
So either these men were horse holders (who would have stood no chance) or troopers stood either by there horses or getting ready to form skirmish line, either way they could have been caught in mid formation and not yet ready.

[azranger]

Ian

What I know is that we do what we train for in most circumstances. There may have been some training to fire while holding a horse at the same time but I have not seen it.

I think a reenactor would answer this best. I think the carbine was carried slung and the muzzle stuck in the scabbard to keep it from bouncing around on the right side of the horse. If the trooper dismounts on the left he would pull the carbine from the scabbard as he dismounts in my opinion.

Regards

AZ Ranger

[yanmacca]

Ah now I see, the trooper had his carbine attached to his body at all times;

[quincannon]

The Low Dog account does not fit the Cemetery/LSH area as far as I can determine.

I am not at all sure it would fit the Keogh Area either. Mac makes a good case, but I don't believe he accounts for that whole swale area, some perhaps but not all.

Ian: You must not be discouraged. You find a snipit of information, and it is just like finding a piece to a jigsaw puzzle. Before you can place it in the puzzle, you must thoroughly examine the piece, judging its size, shape, and coloration, to determine just where the piece fits, before you place it. That is what we do here, and it would be irresponsible to do anything else. If upon examination you cannot find where the piece fits you put it aside as either an outlier, or in the too hard now pile, and come back to it later, Once in awhile, there is a piece in the puzzle box that belongs to another puzzle. Eventually you identify it, and deal with it.

Training: I have touched on it as has Steve and the Gunslinger. Everyone must realize, implant it in your brain, kept there forever. Training matters. Training once done is instinctive. That is what you do. It is your hope and your refuge. It represents your ability to overcome. The difference between a good unit and a bad unit is the amount of hard, realistic, focused training they have done. They both have done some. The good do more, the bad do little. There is no middle ground, you are either good, or by definition bad.

When any account you see is inconsistent with known tactics, techniques, and procedures, it must become instantly suspect. If the tale is a guy holding his horse shooting, that is inconsistent with TTP. If some guys are said to be spread out about five yards apart, either standing, kneeling, or prone, shooting carbines, that is consistent with TTP. Try to put yourself in the place of a reasonable man in the same circumstances.

What is more important, the frigging horse or me defending myself?

I am holding the horses of others. I am responsible for those horses, as I am responsible to those I am holding them for. I must defend them.

I am standing still doing nothing but holding a horse. Everyone else in my unit is standing holding their horses too. I am doing nothing else. Why am I there? What is the reason I stand holding a horse, while battle rages in other units around me?

If you do not look at any tale told and ask Who, When, What, Where then you are doing yourself a disservice. You throw that tale in the too hard for now pile. Someday, examining something else that tale may yet make some sense, but not today.

[yanmacca]

Chuck I am stumbling across accounts all the time and I feel compelled to post them, even those that look dodgy as even those can include something of relevance whether it be a place on the battlefield or even another warriors name, I think they should be aired to all.

Then we can look at them as a team and separate the wheat from the chaff, as I am only the poster and not the writer of the account and have nothing to do with its contents.