Custer Moves to Ford D with Five Companies Part A

[Beth]

I think the 'he was trying to get to the noncombatants" is just an attempt to justify Custer's actions after the fact and were probably never on Custer's mind that day. Custer had to get get across that river to fight once he went onto the bluffs, B was unusable, no one can see C evidently--D was problematic and E was a ford to far.

To me at least the thought that Custer was trying to perform the Washita v2.0 plan is questionable because the only things that the only two factors that the same between Washita and LBH were it was Custer and he was fighting NA. Every other factor was different.

Custer used surprise at Washita with better than 2:1 advantage (698 to around 300) -and that's the whole village--Custer's advantage is even stronger if just look at warriors. When Custer used the hostages to escape, he already had defeated their protectors and was using them against a larger village further away.

At LBH Custer gave up surprise, had no small village to defeat first, the advantage was on the NA side especially when Custer divided his forces and he would have had to defeat the women and children's protectors while still fighting the huge village at the same time, to take the women and children hostage.

[quincannon]

Concur.

[chardvc]

Nov 16, 2016 23:04:49 GMT Beth said:

I think the 'he was trying to get to the noncombatants" is just an attempt to justify Custer's actions after the fact and were probably never on Custer's mind that day. Custer had to get get across that river to fight once he went onto the bluffs, B was unusable, no one can see C evidently--D was problematic and E was a ford to far.

To me at least the thought that Custer was trying to perform the Washita v2.0 plan is questionable because the only things that the only two factors that the same between Washita and LBH were it was Custer and he was fighting NA. Every other factor was different.

Custer used surprise at Washita with better than 2:1 advantage (698 to around 300) -and that's the whole village--Custer's advantage is even stronger if just look at warriors. When Custer used the hostages to escape, he already had defeated their protectors and was using them against a larger village further away.

At LBH Custer gave up surprise, had no small village to defeat first, the advantage was on the NA side especially when Custer divided his forces and he would have had to defeat the women and children's protectors while still fighting the huge village at the same time, to take the women and children hostage.

OK Beth you've convinced me.

It makes going to D with part of the force rather than all of it a stupid idea. (Mind you that doesn't rule it out does it!!?) 

[yanmacca]

The two best crossing points available to Custer was B and D, the others don't look that good for a large body of troops.
The others would be ok for small bands of Indians.

[quincannon]

There are crossing points, then there are points suitable for conducting an opposed river crossing, or a river crossing that has the potential to be opposed.

Not to be taken as a smart ass comment I trust, but rather an important distinction that is most times lost by our friends on the other boards, assorted reenactors, and acolytes the of same. Just because it is possible to cross a military force at a given ford location does not mean you can use it for any damned thing you want to do.

[yanmacca]

I would expect though that just crossing the river would one facet of the mission, as they would have to form up and tighten any loose gear and straps before crossing, then after they got across they would have to do a similar thing, I think Reno did similar when he crossed at ford A.

I think that going so far north would allow him time to do these things, but ford B offered nothing only a direct point to cross and that was in the center of the village with little room to allow for any forming once across.

So Custer maybe wanted a Reno type unopposed crossing which allowed him to be ready and in good order to attack.

[quincannon]

I suspect you are correct Ian, but you do not always get what you want, so you plan to use a place where you can make an opposed crossing if necessary. Then if it turns out you do not have an opposition you can then do all the nice to do activities, before you proceed further.

Ford B, to use the vernacular did not offer squat. Ford D provided all that was necessary either way.

[mac]

I think Beth is right on point in her post. We cannot read Custer's mind as to his intent when across the river. We do know that he had to cross the river. In that case the only place he could do that was Ford D.
If nothing else the Ford B theory fails completely in that it would be a terrible place to cross. 
Cheers

[mac]

A small point on the notion that roads are a good indication of likely routes. The tourist road route as it goes past Greasy Grass ridge and up to Calhoun Hill is where I see Lame White Man making his charge into Company C when they deploy along the FF ridge.
This tells me markers in front of GG ridge are fleeing from that  assault. The cluster of markers part way up include the Sergeants and may be a small stand on the step in the ridge.
Too long on google!
Cheers

[Beth]

Where any of the markers in the cluster moved there when they put in the road? I read recently--perhaps in was in the link Ian posted a couple days ago about markers being moved around for the visitor center and the road. It would me nice to know where they went or did they just remove them totally.

[dave]

Beth
Not only the concerns you raise but remember Dark Cloud's lament about the extra markers that were placed willy nilly around Last Stand Hill and the Visitor's Center.
Regards
Dave

[quincannon]

Beth: "Where Custer Fell" has some period photos that suggest that not much is changed in the F-F area from original placement. I seem to recall one or two, but most are the same and I do not have the book at hand at the moment to check and verify.

Dave: Dark Cloud in his later days did not do much more than lament. He had heartburn with markers, artifacts, Indian testimony, translations, Army testimony, and Campbell's Pork and Beans. I am sure he had reason for his views, but I think what ailed him could generally be corrected with a daily dose of Milk of Magnesia, and a Moon Pie.

Mac: Fully concur on the LWM axis of attack.

[mac]

I agree we do always have to be careful about markers and LSH is well known to be meaningless although there are contemporary accounts.
I have been reading a bit of Fox on Archaeology. Interested to see him say that generally any Sioux accounts about the Cemetery Ridge action will be hearsay and unreliable. I also picked up another lead to investigate tonight; more later if anything comes of it.
Cheers

[yanmacca]

Also you see mentioned in some Indian accounts the mention of the cemetery and monument, now these were added well after the battle, but some of the Indians do use them in their accounts to explain what happened on certain features, which seems wrong to me and is a clear indicator that some of the accounts were written well after the event.

I suppose if you are looking up hill at a featureless terrain, that the only things that stand out are the heights, so I suppose that's how the Indians maybe are getting their locations wrong, as ridges like cemetery, Calhoun, battle and Finley-Finkle are just prominent's on the skyline, well they were until the white man started to add features like buildings and stuff.

[yanmacca]

Here is a shot I got from the highway looking towards the battlefield, the wooded area is the position of the cemetery, now I don't think that any trees were on this position in 1876, so you can imagine how featureless it would be.